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Say Q gets bored and gives the Romulan Star Empire 20 Scimitars. The Romulans man them all with competent commanders.

What impact will this have on the alpha quadrant?

The Romulans would go to war with the UFP and the Klingons. Lets assume this incident takes place after the Dominion war. The Federation would be battered by the war. The Klingon fleet even more so. IIRC it was stated it would take 10 years for the Klingons to rebuild their fleets.

The Scimitar is a formidable battleships. They can take the full torpedo complenent of a Sovereign battlecruiser with only 70 % shield damage. Considering that most Federation and Klingon ships have only a fraction of the Sovereigns firepower the Scimitar could probobly take on a small fleet and win. The Scimitar undetectable cloak would also be a big asset since it can sneak up wherever it wants to.

The Romulans best strategy would be to use the Scimitars in deep strikes against the Federation and the Klingon Star Empire. By using the undetecable cloak the Scimitar approaches ships yars, starbases, space stations etc and uses it's powerful weapons to destroy them. Soon the Federation and Klingon infrastructure will be crumbling.

wautd wrote:Say Q gets bored and gives the Romulan Star Empire 20 Scimitars. The Romulans man them all with competent commanders.

What impact will this have on the alpha quadrant?

Given what I know of their capabilities? They'd do almost as well as Star Destroyers do in about a pre-EP2ICS pro-SW ASVS fanfic (not the pro-SW debate edition), not counting the hyperdrive advantage. Of course, the Scimitar got a cloak that we know current Fed tech had not yet cracked, which balances this one out somewhat.

It can be used in much the same way - raids, eliminating of small fleets on their own, planetary attack (with the Thalaron substituting for the BDZ).

evilcat4000 wrote:The Scimitar is a formidable battleships. They can take the full torpedo complenent of a Sovereign battlecruiser with only 70 % shield damage.

Shouldn't that be 30% shield damage? And let's not forget that it was the result of the E-E plus the two warbirds that did that damage to the Scimitar.

evilcat4000 wrote: The Scimitar is a formidable battleships. They can take the full torpedo complenent of a Sovereign battlecruiser with only 70 % shield damage. Considering that most Federation and Klingon ships have only a fraction of the Sovereigns firepower the Scimitar could probobly take on a small fleet and win. The Scimitar undetectable cloak would also be a big asset since it can sneak up wherever it wants to.
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Quite of few E-E torps actually missed. The Scimitar didn't take the full load. Also we see a riducoulsy small amount of torps fired. Its quite likely that the E-E wasn't carrying a full load for what ever reason.

evilcat4000 wrote:The Romulans would go to war with the UFP and the Klingons.

Why? The Romulans have never been one to jump to open war on the spur on the moment. You think they'll just wake up and go "OMG, 0WNAGE! KILL uFP l0L!"?

If anything the Romulans have been the quite ones, who sit and wait. I can't see them just deciding to go to WAR without a hell of a lot of thought and debate. But lets PRESUME this is what happens.

Lets assume this incident takes place after the Dominion war.

Well by definition it would have to as the Scimitar only came about post Dominion War.

The Federation would be battered by the war.

Uh huh. You have anything to back this up with? I doubt it.

The Federation came through the Dominion war on the top of the AQ. Despite the horrible losses taken during the early phases of the war, eventually their production levels came upto such strength that they had replaced all their losses new for old.

At the end of the war, the combined Dominion fleet was around 25,000 ships. The Klingons had only 1500 ships. Weyoun stated that the Romulans and Klingons without the Federation were no threat. But WITH the Federation fleet, they won the war in a matter of weeks.

Assuming a relatively equal split, the Federation and Romulans would be needing around the ten thousand mark each in hull numbers to get close to the Dominions total fleet. Hell in the final battle, the Federation was assigned the toughest nut to crack out of all the enemies showing their fleet was the strongest. The composition of the fleets had changed much as well. Early on you had the Miranda and Excelsior forming the backbone of many fleets with Galaxies sprinkled through and other small ships. In 'Endgame' the flotilla near Earth of 18 ships were all modern combat designs, excepting an Excelsior and a couple of Miranda’s.

That Romulan senator made a comment in 'In the Pale Moonlight' that the UFP's shipyards were still being stood up to a full war footing halfway into the war, clearly they have revved up the production capacity to replace their losses. Sloan commented that post Dominion war, it would be the Romulans and Federation facing off. But he was clearly not panicked about the threat they posed, simply moving into position against them.

So in short, the UFPs fleet is in the best shape it has been for decades. I very much doubt they have many Valdors to supplement the De'Deredax class as yet, they appear to be a reaction to the Dominion war and their poor warbird design. The Federation on the other hand has masses of Militarised Galaxies, Akiras, Defiants, Nebulas, Sovereigns and the Promethesus class as well. We saw how quickly the first model Promethesus took down a De'Deradax class warbird. We also saw how an Akira shrugged off fire from another warbird in that battle. And the Romulan fleet has never appeared to be very large.

The Klingon fleet even more so. IIRC it was stated it would take 10 years for the Klingons to rebuild their fleets.

True, but by the time of Nemesis they've had at least a few years to get started on it. At the least the Klingons can hold a defensive war and tie up Romulan firepower.

The Scimitar is a formidable battleships. They can take the full torpedo complement of a Sovereign Battlecruiser with only 70 % shield damage.

They can take torpedoes yes. IF the E-E was actually fully loaded is still a hot question. Enterprise didn't appear to shoot that many off, my opinion is that they were not carrying a full complement when on route to a weeding in peacetime and they clearly didn't have time to stop and pack some more in, Janeway ordered them to Romulas ASAP.

Second that should be 30% damage.

Third the Scimitar uses a duel layer shield system that is highly effective at blocking damage. it doesn't appear to be regenerative like the Sovereign II or Promethesus, but allows one layer to take the damage while the other recharges offline, then swap over. What you need is high power or high wattage weapons that can blast though. THe E-E's quantum torpedoes, only a single salvo at that, were powerful enough to blast through its shields, take out the cloaking device and cause system damage. Unfortunately the E-E without main power and exhausting its weapons had all but reached the limit of her endurance, so they lacked the ability to follow through on their success.

A Federation taskforce, especially given that Q-Torps are becoming fleet wide a standard weapon, shouldn't have the same problems the E-E had. The Scimitar is just a mobile super weapon after all, not built as a dreadnaught from the ground up.

Considering that most Federation and Klingon ships have only a fraction of the Sovereigns firepower

Realllly.

The Galaxy, Nebula, Akira and Promethesus which are the main ships of the line now come very close, though each specialises in a different mission. The smaller ships have no business fighting a Scimitar one on one nor should they. In fleet groups, the Federation ships won't have major problems.

The Scimitar could probobly take on a small fleet and win.

I extremely doubt it. If a single Q-Torp burst from the E-E could really shake up the Scimitar, a pair of Akiras backstopped with Nebulas or Promethesus's will tear her appart within a short time.

The Scimitar undetectable cloak would also be a big asset since it can sneak up wherever it wants to.

True enough. Though how 'perfect' it is is not clear. Given time I don't dobut the Federation would counter it. It might even be as simple as breaking out Voyagers Borg enhanced astrometric sensors which have shown an ability to see through cloaking technology. And besides, except attacks on strategic targets (which the UFP will have defended heavily ) its not going to be THAT useful. Federation Fleets will and should be advancing into Romulan space and forcing the enemy to come to THEM.

The Romulans best strategy would be to use the Scimitars in deep strikes against the Federation and the Klingon Star Empire. By using the undetectable cloak the Scimitar approaches ships yars, starbases, space stations etc and uses it's powerful weapons to destroy them. Soon the Federation and Klingon infrastructure will be crumbling.

Uh huh. Well first Starbases are going to be too much for a single Scimitar to take on. DS9 could take on entire fleets of Starships and its only an upgraded Cardasian mining station. Full scale UFP starbases will probably swat a single Scimitar like an egg. Simply have them keep their shields on moderate power levels at all times during war. If you make terror raids on UFP population centres you simply have the Federation bring on its own weapons of mass destruction, not something either side wants to do.

Oh and the Federation can easily install its own cloaks BTW. With the treaty dead between the UFP and Romulans, they can cloak up their own ships in a matter of days. The Defiant proves there is no incompatibility issue. "A Call To Arms" proves the UFP has cloaking technology designs and units on file, easily replicated within a day. And if the Romulans bring on the 'Perfect Cloak', the UFP can bring on the phase cloak.

They bring on the Thealeron Weapons, the UFP can bring on the Ablative Amour Generator and Transphasic Torpedoes.

The Scimitars are a powerful weapon yes. But the Federation can simply blast its way into the Romulan Star Empire and start taking planets, forcing the Romulans to pull back all their forces to try and stop the advance.

Chris OFarrell wrote:If anything the Romulans have been the quite ones, who sit and wait. I can't see them just deciding to go to WAR without a hell of a lot of thought and debate. But lets PRESUME this is what happens.

Let's not, and say we did?

I've been rewatching old TNG episodes, and basically you're right. "The Romulan traditional ploy has always been to test enemy resolve before jumping into war", to paraphrase Data from "The Defector" - a lesson they learnt I speculate from the E/R wars where they were beaten back from - what I always gathered - as pre-emptive strikes which the Humans retaliated with unexpected ferocity.

The Federation came through the Dominion war on the top of the AQ.

The only thing I want to comment on is "Inter Arma Enem Silent Leges" where it was heavily implied that the RSE and the Federation were on a parity with each other (the Cardassians would be smashed if the war were won, the Dominion a non-player, the Ferengi a non-player, the Klingons would take decades to rebuild etc).

Stofsk wrote:
Let's not, and say we did?

*Hits the foolish Melbourinian over the head with a 2X4*

I've been rewatching old TNG episodes, and basically you're right. "The Romulan traditional ploy has always been to test enemy resolve before jumping into war", to paraphrase Data from "The Defector" - a lesson they learnt I speculate from the E/R wars where they were beaten back from - what I always gathered - as pre-emptive strikes which the Humans retaliated with unexpected ferocity.

Well you also have Balance of Terror where they were clearly testing the UFP's response and abilities before going to war, then they pulled back and waited. Hell even "In the Pale Moonlight' shows how they were reluctent to get involved in the Dominion war unless a direct threat emerged, despite the strategic situation becoming untenable if they waited too long.

Hell even look at what the Romulan ambasador said in ST6. In response to the chaos of the death of Gorkon its "I must consult with my Government". Its always wait and see, think and watch.


The only thing I want to comment on is "Inter Arma Enem Silent Leges" where it was heavily implied that the RSE and the Federation were on a parity with each other (the Cardassians would be smashed if the war were won, the Dominion a non-player, the Ferengi a non-player, the Klingons would take decades to rebuild etc).[/quote]

I'm not entire sure in this. Slone made it clear the Romulans would be the only major threat to the Federation, but he's not very clear about how BIG a threat. To quote him:

BASHIR
You're asking me to spy on an
ally.

SLOAN
To evaluate an ally -- and a
temporary ally at that. I say
that because when the war's over,
the following will happen in
short order: The Dominion will
be forced back to the Gamma
Quadrant. The Cardassian Empire
will be occupied. The Klingon
Empire will spend the next ten
years recovering from the war and
won't pose a major threat to
anyone. That leaves two powers
to vie for control of the
quadrant -- the Federation and
the Romulans.

BASHIR
This war isn't even over and
you're already planning for the
next one.

SLOAN
Well put.

If Nemesis is any indication, the Romulans were only prepared to launch a limited action to reclaim the Neutral Zone, they didn't have the balls to go for an outright conquest of the UFP. My guess is that they were going to present a faint'accompli, take the Neutral Zone (which I guess is all former Romulan space that they lose after they lose the war) and stop there, daring the UFP to do something about it.

That the Romulans instantly stoped backing him when they released what he was going to do to Earth speaks that they REALLY didn't want

Chris OFarrell wrote:At the end of the war, the combined Dominion fleet was around 25,000 ships. The Klingons had only 1500 ships. Weyoun stated that the Romulans and Klingons without the Federation were no threat. But WITH the Federation fleet, they won the war in a matter of weeks.

It was quite clear that Jemmie bugs were cannon fodder by the end of the war, I see no reason to assume that the FRK fleet was equal to the Dominion fleet in numbers.

Sneak 10 cloaked Scimis into Fed space, 10 into Klingon space. Decloak one over Qo'nos, one over Earth, one over Vulan, and one over every other major planet. Nuke it. Done.

Howedar wrote:

Chris OFarrell wrote:At the end of the war, the combined Dominion fleet was around 25,000 ships. The Klingons had only 1500 ships. Weyoun stated that the Romulans and Klingons without the Federation were no threat. But WITH the Federation fleet, they won the war in a matter of weeks.

It was quite clear that Jemmie bugs were cannon fodder by the end of the war, I see no reason to assume that the FRK fleet was equal to the Dominion fleet in numbers.

While the Jem'Hadar attackship did make up a significant portion of the Dominion fleet, there was also an extremely large number of Dominion Heavy Cruisers as well as Cardassian Galor class ships and the new Breen ships. All of those are significantly more powerful then the attackship. The FKR Alliance wasn't dealing with a cannon fodder enemy.

I think the Roms would avoid using the Thaeleron weapons at all costs.

The last thing they want is for the Federation to retaliate with WMDs. The Feds have Section 31, who create bioweapons that wipe out whole species, they have Genesis devices (If anyone still has the plans, it's section 31), Soliton wave generators that can blow up whole planets (on accident--but how hard would it be to aim one at Romulus?), etc.. They also have time travel, and are the only power in the Quadrant known to have it.

Since the Federation can use holoprojectors to come up with Emergency Command Holograms, they don't even have to worry about running out of trained crewmen for their ships. Will Thaeleron even kill holograms?

Alyeska wrote:

Howedar wrote:

Chris OFarrell wrote:At the end of the war, the combined Dominion fleet was around 25,000 ships. The Klingons had only 1500 ships. Weyoun stated that the Romulans and Klingons without the Federation were no threat. But WITH the Federation fleet, they won the war in a matter of weeks.

It was quite clear that Jemmie bugs were cannon fodder by the end of the war, I see no reason to assume that the FRK fleet was equal to the Dominion fleet in numbers.

While the Jem'Hadar attackship did make up a significant portion of the Dominion fleet, there was also an extremely large number of Dominion Heavy Cruisers as well as Cardassian Galor class ships and the new Breen ships. All of those are significantly more powerful then the attackship. The FKR Alliance wasn't dealing with a cannon fodder enemy.

And its wrong to claim the Bugs were nothing but Cannon Fodder. They are more then capable of taking on the smallest Starfleet shpis one on one. We see in 'Favour the Bold' how a Miranda and a Bug exchange energy fire. THe Bug is undamaged, the Miranda has its nacelle blown off. In "A Time to Stand" Siskos bug go's up against a newer Centar class ship similar to a Miranda in size and it takes quite a pounding.

And as Aly has said, by the end of the war the Dominion fielded very large numbers of Battlecruisers as well as Cardasian heavy ships. And increasing numbers of Destroyers that outmatched anything in the F-K-R allience invintory. And if you belive in the Battleships for that matter they were comming online. The FKR alliance if anything WOULD need greater numbers of Bigger ships to reasnoably fight the enemy.

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:I think the Roms would avoid using the Thaeleron weapons at all costs.

I don't think when he says Scimitar he's referring to the custom model Shinzon uses in Nemesis, but instead the same ship sans Medusa gun.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:I think the Roms would avoid using the Thaeleron weapons at all costs.

I don't think when he says Scimitar he's referring to the custom model Shinzon uses in Nemesis, but instead the same ship sans Medusa gun.

Saying that is almost as bad as saying "Death Star" when you intend to strip it of its superlaser.

Praxis wrote:Sneak 10 cloaked Scimis into Fed space, 10 into Klingon space. Decloak one over Qo'nos, one over Earth, one over Vulan, and one over every other major planet. Nuke it. Done.

They get wiped out while they're spending eight full minutes charging.

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:The last thing they want is for the Federation to retaliate with WMDs.

Except the Federation doesn't have any, at least none evidenced in use during the Dominion War.

The Feds have Section 31, who create bioweapons that wipe out whole species

Bioweapons are notoriously unreliable; there is no guarantee that you will achieve 100% infection or that the disease will kill the enemy in sufficent time to prevent retaliation. Even after they were infected, the Changelings were still capable of carrying on the war against the Federation for months.

they have Genesis devices (If anyone still has the plans, it's section 31)

No they don't. The one working example of the device was lost in the detonation within the Mutara sector. The databanks which stored the project data were wiped from the Regula I lab computers and all but one of the project scientists were killed either by Khan or Kruge. Even if the Federation had wanted to revive a lost project which not only was a failure but also so controversial that war was thretened over it, the loss of data and scientists connected with the project would have made any such effort at recreating Genesis impossible. Genesis is lost technology.

Soliton wave generators that can blow up whole planets (on accident--but how hard would it be to aim one at Romulus?), etc..

And soliton waves can be disrupted by photon torpedoes. Probably one reason why weapons based on this principle were never developed. The fact that they require considerable distance of propagation to build up to any appreciable destructive level and thus one which can be intercepted and disrupted would be the other reason.

They also have time travel, and are the only power in the Quadrant known to have it.

How many times has this silly brainbug been argued? Time travel will do nothing toward eliminating any enemy threat in one's own universe or altering the past therein. Time travel cannot be used to simply erase an enemy from existence. It doesn't work that way.

Since the Federation can use holoprojectors to come up with Emergency Command Holograms, they don't even have to worry about running out of trained crewmen for their ships. Will Thaeleron even kill holograms?

No, but knocking out the power will do the trick quite nicely. The one advantage with actual living crewpeople is that they won't disappear if the power goes out, and they can actually repair the ship if it does. Holocrews who can vanish if the ship is damaged sufficently is not what I would consider an advantage by any definition.

Patrick Degan wrote:

Since the Federation can use holoprojectors to come up with Emergency Command Holograms, they don't even have to worry about running out of trained crewmen for their ships. Will Thaeleron even kill holograms?

No, but knocking out the power will do the trick quite nicely. The one advantage with actual living crewpeople is that they won't disappear if the power goes out, and they can actually repair the ship if it does. Holocrews who can vanish if the ship is damaged sufficently is not what I would consider an advantage by any definition.

Also, given the reliability of Federation computers, there is a good chance something will go amiss with them. Eg: Some programs running amok, and someone hacking into their computer and stealing the holo-crew. Plus, a virus could also be a large threat.

Kuja wrote:

Praxis wrote:Sneak 10 cloaked Scimis into Fed space, 10 into Klingon space. Decloak one over Qo'nos, one over Earth, one over Vulan, and one over every other major planet. Nuke it. Done.

They get wiped out while they're spending eight full minutes charging.

By what? IT always seems to be the case that there are never more than 1 or 2 vessels in range of the earth during a crisis and it took longer than 8:00 for the best vessel in the fleet to knock out 1 Scimitar, and that was with help and with a cheap "ass ram them then beam in a guy to attack the reactor because the remans are idiots and don't have any real gaurds stationed" tatic...

Scimitar class ships are impressive and have good cloaks, but I see no reason why they can't be detected by dedicated sensor platforms. Gravitic sensors can detect cloaked ships as it is and there is no indication the Scimitar can hide from that. I suspect the Federation sensor network along with science ships and Nebula AWACs are more then sufficent to detect Scimitar class ships. All we know is that the Scimitar has a cloak sufficently stealth that a Sovereign can't detect her.

Alyeska wrote:Scimitar class ships are impressive and have good cloaks, but I see no reason why they can't be detected by dedicated sensor platforms. Gravitic sensors can detect cloaked ships as it is and there is no indication the Scimitar can hide from that. I suspect the Federation sensor network along with science ships and Nebula AWACs are more then sufficent to detect Scimitar class ships. All we know is that the Scimitar has a cloak sufficently stealth that a Sovereign can't detect her.

... that's not what you said when the debate came up regarding the ability of SW sensors to detect the Scimitar

Anyway, even if we figure that specialized ships can detect the Scimitar, it is already a huge advantage that it can successfully hide from the Federation's most advanced combat sensors (which are probably on the Sovereign).

A lot will then depend on the C3I ability of the Federation. If they are using that manual coordinate transfer scheme they seemed to be using in ST:FC to target the Borg cube (note Picard entering coordinates as he gives instructions), it is still a huge impairment. If it is a newer fully automated transmission scheme, it'd work better.

Also, another factor is how close your "Nebula AWACS" ship would have to get to detect the improved cloak accurately enough to pass on targetting coordinates to everyone. If it is too close, the Scimitar would target the Nebula and blow it clean out of the sky.

Kuja wrote:

Praxis wrote:Sneak 10 cloaked Scimis into Fed space, 10 into Klingon space. Decloak one over Qo'nos, one over Earth, one over Vulan, and one over every other major planet. Nuke it. Done.

They get wiped out while they're spending eight full minutes charging.

Except they're not damaged this time, so they spend eight full minutes chargin while CLOAKED

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:... that's not what you said when the debate came up regarding the ability of SW sensors to detect the Scimitar

I theorized that the cloak might be significantly different enough. However after it was revealed that SW has gravetic sensors semi frequently distributed through their fleet, it became a non issue.

Anyway, even if we figure that specialized ships can detect the Scimitar, it is already a huge advantage that it can successfully hide from the Federation's most advanced combat sensors (which are probably on the Sovereign).

The moment the Scimitar makes it presence known the Federation would adopt proper combat tactics. First the Scimitars would have to get through the Federation boarder. That won't be easy. To attack an important target the Scimitar must also reveal itself. Last of all, the cloak is a minor issue when the Scimitar is constantly firing its weapons. Notice in Nemesis that when the Scimitar was firing the Enterprise almost always scored return shots. The firing through the cloak bit is at best a first strike option.

A lot will then depend on the C3I ability of the Federation. If they are using that manual coordinate transfer scheme they seemed to be using in ST:FC to target the Borg cube (note Picard entering coordinates as he gives instructions), it is still a huge impairment. If it is a newer fully automated transmission scheme, it'd work better.

I suspect the situation in FC came about because Picard had to translate the coordinates in his head. I have no doubt that auto targets can be relayed through the fleet.

Also, another factor is how close your "Nebula AWACS" ship would have to get to detect the improved cloak accurately enough to pass on targetting coordinates to everyone. If it is too close, the Scimitar would target the Nebula and blow it clean out of the sky.

Possible, but I find that unlikely. Given the sheer size of its sensor platform I have little doubt it can brute force the Scimitar cloak with active scans. While this means the Scimitar can avoid Nebulas like that, if its targets are protected by fleets with AWACs Nebulas, it has little choice.

Alyeska wrote:The moment the Scimitar makes it presence known the Federation would adopt proper combat tactics. First the Scimitars would have to get through the Federation boarder. That won't be easy. To attack an important target the Scimitar must also reveal itself. Last of all, the cloak is a minor issue when the Scimitar is constantly firing its weapons. Notice in Nemesis that when the Scimitar was firing the Enterprise almost always scored return shots. The firing through the cloak bit is at best a first strike option.

Shinzon wasn't making particularly good use of the cloak though - he was getting far too near the E-E and making it too easy for them to get shots in. Compare this to Chang, who kept his BoP at a nice long range and would probably have destroyed the E-A, had it not been for Spock's little brainwave.

Alyeska wrote:Scimitar class ships are impressive and have good cloaks, but I see no reason why they can't be detected by dedicated sensor platforms. Gravitic sensors can detect cloaked ships as it is and there is no indication the Scimitar can hide from that. I suspect the Federation sensor network along with science ships and Nebula AWACs are more then sufficent to detect Scimitar class ships. All we know is that the Scimitar has a cloak sufficently stealth that a Sovereign can't detect her.

Geordi's claim that the cloak was "perfect" would seem to rule out detection of a Scimitar by any Federation vessel.