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Roddenberry Disliked Berman
Posted: 2004-07-30 09:19pm
by JME2
From TrekToday:
David Gerrold, who wrote the classic Star Trek episode "The Trouble With Tribbles" and the legendary guidebook The World of Star Trek, as well as episodes of Babylon 5, Sliders and other shows, plus a long-running column in a popular science fiction magazine, spoke extensively about his career and his frustrations with Star Trek: The Next Generation in a recent interview.
Gerrold alleged in his talk with TV Shows On DVD that Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry's mental health was failing near the end of his life, though he added that Paramount would not acknowledge it. The writer of "The Cloud Minders" and a sometime script doctor on the original series, he was originally hired as a producer on the fledgling Next Generation, "but they kept whittling my duties. And my title. And my pay."
Though a favourite with fans because of his episodes of the previous shows, "finally got the very clear message that Gene's lawyer didn't like me. And that whatever Gene promised me, the lawyer was going to take away." He believed that the lawyer, Leonard Maizlish, was afraid that Roddenberry could lose creative control of the show, "so what he was doing was significantly undermining everybody that might be a threat to Gene, so that he could stay in control."
Though Gerrold characterised Roddenberry as a heavy drinker who "could sit down with a bottle of Scotch and a ream of paper...and eight hours later he'd get up and he'd have a finished script and a half-empty bottle of scotch", he compared the show's creator to Ernest Hemingway and said that compared to Roddenberry, Rick Berman was brought in by the studio to manage the details. Gerrold said the studio had blamed Roddenberry for the failure of Star Trek: The Motion Picture, and "Gene didn't like Rick, at all. But Rick was installed on the show by the studio as a way to keep a control on the show...to keep the budgets in line, make sure that the scripts were done." Ultimately, said Gerrold, Berman ended up in control rather than Maizlish because Berman played the politics of the studio more effectively.
Posted: 2004-07-30 09:24pm
by JME2
For me, this personally confirms once and for all what I've always thought in the back of my mind since DS9 ended: Rick Berman hates his position in the Star Trek franchise in that he never wanted the job; it was all stuido politics. The poor plots of latter-TNG, VGR, ENT, Insurrection, and Nemesis -- it makes sense now. If this article is to be trusted, than it shows that Berman wants out and that the poor state of the franchise is intentional, a way at getting back at Gene Roddenberry. That also means that Paramount is tolerating Berman not because of his 15+ years on the studio, but that there is still anger towards what Roddenberry tried to.
Or am I getting too-Mulder esque right now?
Posted: 2004-07-30 09:29pm
by Spanky The Dolphin
Your assesment contradicts: how can he both never have wanted the position and have played the studio politics correctly?
Posted: 2004-07-30 10:07pm
by JME2
That portion of my statement was in error and I withdraw it. I think as time has gone on, he has gotten tired and lazy with the franchise, but in some respects doesn't want to quite thrown in the towel given the influence he wields as the head of one of Paramount's key gold-mines; that influence is what saved him after Nemesis bombed -- alongside Paramount Exces who ignore the rants of ocassional fools like myself.
Posted: 2004-07-30 10:19pm
by Uraniun235
No, it doesn't make sense that Berman was lazy or didn't want his job, because if that were true you'd think he would have done as little as possible, leaving the writers to do what they would and generally not interfering with the show.
But we've heard accounts to the contrary, that it was his word that turned the music on the series into a muddy pile of crap, that it was his word that barred comedy episodes (and then made a reversal at some point), that it was his word that the TOS crew not be mentioned (again, later reversed), etc.
Frankly, I think he just wants to make as much money as possible, and part of that is playing it safe by making decisions that he can successfully defend to the higher-ups that write his paychecks. They may not be good decisions but they could very well be decisions that are easier for him to explain and make him look good in front of whatever crack-smoker is his superior. (although, by now he probably has a metric fuckton of seniority and massive favors throughout Paramount that would effectively prevent him from ever being outright fired)
Posted: 2004-07-30 10:23pm
by neoolong
So basically Berman was an accountant. So why did he have creative control again?
Posted: 2004-07-31 09:36am
by VT-16
So basically Berman was an accountant. So why did he have creative control again?
Because he could combine the two jobs into one bland mess? Get all the proper components together to give each episode just enough "Star Trek-feel" to keep the fans coming back for more, thus keeping his job and more importantly, his paycheck?
Posted: 2004-07-31 11:06am
by Steve
neoolong wrote:So basically Berman was an accountant. So why did he have creative control again?
Simple. He controlled the purse strings. Nothing could be filmed unless he authorized the expense.
Posted: 2004-08-01 01:01pm
by FTeik
If Rodenberry had had his way in the days of TOS it is questionable, that ST would have been such a success.
Keep in mind, that only in the first epoisodes of TNG we see, what he truly wanted. Children, carpets on the bridge, the Enterprise a huge pleasure-cruiser.
Posted: 2004-08-01 09:02pm
by Uraniun235
FTeik, you're assuming that Roddenberry's vision for Star Trek in the 60's is the same as his vision for Star Trek in the 80's. I'm pretty sure someone posted a quote on this forum some weeks ago that said to the effect that Roddenberry 1967 was not the same man as Roddenberry 1987.
Posted: 2004-08-02 04:38am
by Stormbringer
Uraniun235 wrote:FTeik, you're assuming that Roddenberry's vision for Star Trek in the 60's is the same as his vision for Star Trek in the 80's. I'm pretty sure someone posted a quote on this forum some weeks ago that said to the effect that Roddenberry 1967 was not the same man as Roddenberry 1987.
No he wasn't. Which is in part why there's the change from TOS to TNG. Which accounts for a lot of the dramatic failings and bizzare messages.
But the fact is also true the the orginal Star Trek had a lot more input by people other than Roddenberry which is why it's some what schizophrenic in it's message and themes. TOS was far less of a singular product than later Treks have been and it shows.
Posted: 2004-08-02 04:47am
by Stormbringer
The commentary seems about right to me. It sounds like Berman is primarily a bean-counter that knew studio politics and thus landed a lucrative position. That meshes fairly well with what he's done.
1) It's seemingly been far more Braga that's done the creative (and I use the term loosely) grunt work. Or at least in the case of DS9 some one not Berman.
2) His approach has been so highly conservative. Which fits with the bean counter mentality really well. If it's not proveably broken, no need to spend time fixing it.
3) He doesn't seem to give a damn at all about Star Trek. Even compared to Braga, Berman's interest in the series as anything but a cash cow has seemed relatively low.
So I think the idea of a bean-counter that just claimed the cash cow is pretty much right.
Posted: 2004-08-02 09:38pm
by Ma Deuce
Uraniun235 wrote:FTeik, you're assuming that Roddenberry's vision for Star Trek in the 60's is the same as his vision for Star Trek in the 80's. I'm pretty sure someone posted a quote on this forum some weeks ago that said to the effect that Roddenberry 1967 was not the same man as Roddenberry 1987.
Indeed... A good idea of Roddenberry's original vision for TOS can be found in the first pilot, The Cage...
Posted: 2004-08-02 09:58pm
by Stofsk
Ma Deuce wrote:Indeed... A good idea of Roddenberry's original vision for TOS can be found in the first pilot, The Cage...
I don't mind "The Cage" so much, it was just a little slow on the pacing. It was still pretty stylish though, for it's time. And I don't see anything truly objectionable in it - in terms of thematic qualities - nothing like the sort of bullshit Roddenberry inserted into TNG. The only problem was the poor, plodding pace of the episode, and some of the characters were sort of lacking.
One of the things I disliked most about "The Cage" not being accepted was the culling of the female XO. I thought her inclusion was significant, and lament the loss. But oh well, that's life.
Posted: 2004-08-02 10:48pm
by Spanky The Dolphin
The NBC executives were actually very open to the idea of a woman as second in command and liked it. What they didn't like that the role was pretty much just invented and written for Majel Baret, Roddenberry's mistress at the time.
The long-said reasoning of "people wouldn't accept a woman XO" is purely a fabrication of Roddenberry's...
Posted: 2004-09-01 12:17am
by nasor
Whenever I hear someone complain about how Berman is ‘ruining the series,’ I have to wonder – did they ever actually watch the original show? Wasn’t Gene the guy who brought us such gems as ‘Gangster Planet,’ ‘Roman Planet,’ ‘Wild West Planet’…and the list goes on. Can anything that’s happened on Berman’s watch even begin to compete with that level of dumbness? Even most of the ‘good’ original series episodes are painfully bad by modern standards.
Posted: 2004-09-01 12:32am
by Drooling Iguana
nasor wrote:Whenever I hear someone complain about how Berman is ‘ruining the series,’ I have to wonder – did they ever actually watch the original show? Wasn’t Gene the guy who brought us such gems as ‘Gangster Planet,’
You dare critisize the episode that introduced the world to Fizzbin? Away with you!
‘Roman Planet,’
Haven't seen that one.
‘Wild West Planet’
Okay, that one waws just plain bad. And you forgot about Nazi Planet.
…and the list goes on. Can anything that’s happened on Berman’s watch even begin to compete with that level of dumbness? Even most of the ‘good’ original series episodes are painfully bad by modern standards.
Well, the ones you mentioned were most likely influenced by studio demands and budget more than anything. The studio had a wild west/roman/'20s set laying around from another production and wanted to get a bit more use out of it before they threw it away, so they wrote a Star Trek episode around it.
Posted: 2004-09-01 01:47am
by Macross
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:The NBC executives were actually very open to the idea of a woman as second in command and liked it. What they didn't like that the role was pretty much just invented and written for Majel Baret, Roddenberry's mistress at the time.
The long-said reasoning of "people wouldn't accept a woman XO" is purely a fabrication of Roddenberry's...
I had always heard that it wasnt until after the show had ended that he and Majel started seeing each other.
In the "Inside Star TreK" CD, Roddenberry says that ultimatly he had to choose between having a female XO or Spock.
Posted: 2004-09-01 01:51am
by Stofsk
Drooling Iguana wrote:nasor wrote:‘Roman Planet,’
Haven't seen that one.
It's a good one. I don't know what Nasor's problem with this episode is, but I liked it.
Posted: 2004-09-01 02:00am
by Spanky The Dolphin
Macross wrote:Spanky The Dolphin wrote:The NBC executives were actually very open to the idea of a woman as second in command and liked it. What they didn't like that the role was pretty much just invented and written for Majel Baret, Roddenberry's mistress at the time.
The long-said reasoning of "people wouldn't accept a woman XO" is purely a fabrication of Roddenberry's...
I had always heard that it wasnt until after the show had ended that he and Majel started seeing each other.
No, they had been seeing each other for a while before.
In the "Inside Star TreK" CD, Roddenberry says that ultimatly he had to choose between having a female XO or Spock.
Yes he did, but his reasons concerning the female XO were a fabrication.
Posted: 2004-09-01 06:36am
by VT-16
Gangster Planet
Tommyguns are cool. Period.
Nazi Planet
Showed one of the few examples of ground-craft in addition to having a spacefleet (before the ST galaxy became tactically inept.) And, I hate to admit it, but those uniforms are quite spiffy....
Only thing awkward was calling the other people "Zeons". Subtle as a sledgehammer.
Can´t comment on the rest, haven´t seen Wild West World or Roman World.
Posted: 2004-09-01 08:03am
by Patrick Degan
Stofsk wrote:Drooling Iguana wrote:nasor wrote:‘Roman Planet,’
Haven't seen that one.
It's a good one. I don't know what Nasor's problem with this episode is, but I liked it.
If you try to view "Bread And Circuses" as straight SF, it is goofy nonsensical bullshit. If on the other hand you view it as a satire of America —especially of American network television— it's actually a bit clever.
Posted: 2004-09-02 11:04am
by Lord Woodlouse
"Gene didn't like Rick at all but Rick was installed on the show by the studio as a way to keep in control of the show. Rick was there to manage the details. - David Gerrold.
Quote I found in the recent edition of SFX magazine.
Posted: 2004-09-04 03:07pm
by nasor
Patrick Degan wrote:If you try to view "Bread And Circuses" as straight SF, it is goofy nonsensical bullshit. If on the other hand you view it as a satire of America —especially of American network television— it's actually a bit clever.
I’m of the opinion that you don’t get a free pass to have your plot be goofy, nonsensical bullshit simply because you throw in some social commentary. Social commentary is fine, but it doesn’t excuse the ridiculousness of Roman Planet.
I don’t mean to sound like a critical hard-ass, but the plots of Gangster Planet, Wild West Planet, etc. were absolutely nonsensical crap by pretty much any standard. I’m completely baffled by how trek fans could complain about Berman’s stories when much of the stuff on the original series was orders of magnitude worse.
Posted: 2004-09-04 03:11pm
by Spanky The Dolphin
The "Wild West" planet in "Spectre of the Gun" wasn't the actual nature of the civilisation. It was a surreal illusional test set up by the native Melkotians. Or did you forget that all the buildings were just one-walled store fronts?
Additionally, things such as the "gangster planet" and the "Nazi planet" were either artificial set ups or due to external contamination. Yeah, there were a few unexplainable ones, like Miri's Planet, the Roman Earth, and Omega IV, but not all were like those, so do your research before flapping your mouth.