Did TOS have the Death Penalty

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2004-07-27 04:55pm

I watched the final part of a star trek episode on Sci-Fi and it seemed to indicate that the Federation had teh death penalty. Opinions?

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2004-07-27 05:00pm

They had it for anyone who went to Talos IV.

SCRawl · Post by **SCRawl** » 2004-07-27 07:30pm

Harry Mudd was guilty of crimes which carried a choice of a few different sentences: death by hanging, death by phaser, etc.

So, yes, some governments did have the death penalty.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-07-27 07:44pm

SCRawl wrote:Harry Mudd was guilty of crimes which carried a choice of a few different sentences: death by hanging, death by phaser, etc.

So, yes, some governments did have the death penalty.

That particular incident refers to a world that wasn't stated to be a Federation member IIRC.

But to answer the general question: in TOS they had the death penalty for two things: unauthorised visitation to the planet Talos IV, and mutiny (and I guess treason as well, it being a similar and perhaps greater offence).

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2004-07-27 08:21pm

Stofsk wrote:
SCRawl wrote:Harry Mudd was guilty of crimes which carried a choice of a few different sentences: death by hanging, death by phaser, etc.

So, yes, some governments did have the death penalty.
That particular incident refers to a world that wasn't stated to be a Federation member IIRC.

But to answer the general question: in TOS they had the death penalty for two things: unauthorised visitation to the planet Talos IV, and mutiny (and I guess treason as well, it being a similar and perhaps greater offence).

The only death penalty on the books in the Federation is for violating General Order 7 —going to Talos IV. In "Turnabout Intruder", Kirk/Lester sentenced Spock, McCoy, and Scott to death for mutiny; Chekov and Sulu immediately rose in protest against the illegal order. Chekov misquotes General Order 4 as the death penalty statute —unless the law was changed at some point after "The Menagerie", since the young ensign further says that the order "has never been violated by anybody aboard the Enterprise.

Harry Mudd's crimes took place on Deneb IV, then not a Federation member world and which does have the death penalty for fraud. "Guilty party has his choice: death by electrocution, death by hanging, death by gas, death by phaser..."

By the time of TNG, there appears to be no death penalty statute in Federation law.

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2004-07-27 08:24pm

Stofsk wrote:That particular incident refers to a world that wasn't stated to be a Federation member IIRC.

But to answer the general question: in TOS they had the death penalty for two things: unauthorised visitation to the planet Talos IV, and mutiny (and I guess treason as well, it being a similar and perhaps greater offence).

Be curious to note if murder has death as a penalty or if the slaughter of an antire crew of a ship get the death penalty.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-07-27 08:47pm

Nah, they get sent to a resort- er, rehabilitation center.

Anyway, what's on Talos IV that's so important?

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-07-27 09:23pm

Chekov misquotes General Order 4 as the death penalty statute —unless the law was changed at some point after "The Menagerie", since the young ensign further says that the order "has never been violated by anybody aboard the Enterprise.

He could simply be mistaken; IIRC, "The Menagerie" occurred before he came aboard the ship, and he may be unaware of that incident.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-07-27 10:07pm

Patrick Degan wrote:
I wrote:But to answer the general question: in TOS they had the death penalty for two things: unauthorised visitation to the planet Talos IV, and mutiny (and I guess treason as well, it being a similar and perhaps greater offence).
*snip* In "Turnabout Intruder", Kirk/Lester sentenced Spock, McCoy, and Scott to death for mutiny; Chekov and Sulu immediately rose in protest against the illegal order. Chekov misquotes General Order 4 as the death penalty statute —unless the law was changed at some point after "The Menagerie", since the young ensign further says that the order "has never been violated by anybody aboard the Enterprise.

I have not seen that episode in a long time so please forgive me, but I seem to recall Chekov and Sulu protesting because they thought the grounds for mutiny was wrong to begin with, not that the order was 'illegal' (I guess it would be an illegal order if the grounds for it weren't valid, which is probably the case - I feel like I'm babbling incoherently...)?

As to your assertion that Chekov misquotes General Order 4 (the 'mutiny' law, I guess) I would imagine that is hard to back up. I find it remarkable that Starfleet will punish anyone with death if they visit a quarantined planet, yet serious crimes like mutiny and treason are somehow exempt. I wonder if Starfleet has a 'treason' law or if General Order 4 refers to both mutiny AND treason. Also, after "The Menagerie" General Order 7 may have been re-evaluated.

Harry Mudd's crimes took place on Deneb IV, then not a Federation member world and which does have the death penalty for fraud. "Guilty party has his choice: death by electrocution, death by hanging, death by gas, death by phaser..."

Did it eventually become a Federation member?

By the time of TNG, there appears to be no death penalty statute in Federation law.

That's because everyone's a communist - and is happy because of it, utopia paradise and brainwashing and all that. Hell, I'd love to be a criminal in the Star Trek universe - get caught by Starfleet and you get sent to New Zealand and fix things.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-07-27 10:12pm

Praxis wrote:Nah, they get sent to a resort- er, rehabilitation center.

Anyway, what's on Talos IV that's so important?

Hideously powerful telepaths who can control large numbers of people through illusions, who were determined to make human explorers into a slave race - whether or not they even survive to Picard's day and beyond is unknown. It was implied they were dying out and that a human slave population was essential to restore themselves to former greatness.

If this were ever the case, the galaxy would be in some serious shit. Pike was pretty disciplined and fought the Talosians mind war, but he's just one man. And he only got out of that situation by earnestly preparing to commit suicide, with Number One following suit. If the Talosians could capture another ship of hapless explorers they could conceivably have a disproportionate effect on galactic affairs.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-07-28 12:46am

Stofsk wrote:
Praxis wrote:Nah, they get sent to a resort- er, rehabilitation center.

Anyway, what's on Talos IV that's so important?
Hideously powerful telepaths who can control large numbers of people through illusions, who were determined to make human explorers into a slave race - whether or not they even survive to Picard's day and beyond is unknown. It was implied they were dying out and that a human slave population was essential to restore themselves to former greatness.

If this were ever the case, the galaxy would be in some serious shit. Pike was pretty disciplined and fought the Talosians mind war, but he's just one man. And he only got out of that situation by earnestly preparing to commit suicide, with Number One following suit. If the Talosians could capture another ship of hapless explorers they could conceivably have a disproportionate effect on galactic affairs.

Ah yes, I saw that episode, just forgot the planet name. I also missed the beginning of the episode, so I didn't know of the death penalty (or wasn't paying enough attention, lol).

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-07-28 02:24am

I have not seen that episode in a long time so please forgive me, but I seem to recall Chekov and Sulu protesting because they thought the grounds for mutiny was wrong to begin with, not that the order was 'illegal' (I guess it would be an illegal order if the grounds for it weren't valid, which is probably the case - I feel like I'm babbling incoherently...)?

Sulu says, and I quote: "The death penalty is forbidden! There's only one exception."
Chekov replies "General Order 4... and it has not been violated by any officer on the Enterprise."

Now that I've gone back and listened to it, it should be noted that by Chekov's tone of voice, when he says "it has not been violated by any officer" he means to say that nobody there has just violated GO4, so Kirk would have no grounds on which to execute anyone.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2004-07-28 04:39pm

I would think, that if there is a death penalty or not would depend on the legal system of an individual world. At least during TOS-times, where the UPF is a loose confederation (i somehow doubt somebody like the Andorians would go without it).

The legal status of Federation-personal however could be an entirely different animal.

Metrion Cascade · Post by **Metrion Cascade** » 2004-07-29 04:45pm

Praxis wrote:Nah, they get sent to a resort- er, rehabilitation center.

Anyway, what's on Talos IV that's so important?

Excellent pussy that appears out of thin air.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-07-29 09:42pm

Praxis wrote:Nah, they get sent to a resort- er, rehabilitation center.

Not all of them are particularly cushy; Ro Laren said to advise someone that might be going to some particular penal facility that one wing of the facility tended to heat up pretty bad. Doesn't sound too cushy if a technologically advanced civilization can't properly maintain the air conditioning.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-08-07 02:15pm

Be curious to note if murder has death as a penalty or if the slaughter of an antire crew of a ship get the death penalty.

I´ve recently seen the episode "The Ultimate Computer", where Kirk managed to get the M5 computer to kill itself after it killed people on another starship. They said the penalty for murder is death. (Don´t know if it´s changed in TNG.)

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-08-07 02:18pm

VT-16 wrote:
Be curious to note if murder has death as a penalty or if the slaughter of an antire crew of a ship get the death penalty.
I´ve recently seen the episode "The Ultimate Computer", where Kirk managed to get the M5 computer to kill itself after it killed people on another starship. They said the penalty for murder is death. (Don´t know if it´s changed in TNG.)

in the ultimate computer, you have to remember that daystrom programmed the machine with his memory engrams, and thus his morality. the computer was likely basing the instruction off of daystrom's 'traditional' morality of murder = death penalty, rather than present starfleet regulations.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-08-07 03:30pm

Uraniun235 wrote:
Praxis wrote:Nah, they get sent to a resort- er, rehabilitation center.
Not all of them are particularly cushy; Ro Laren said to advise someone that might be going to some particular penal facility that one wing of the facility tended to heat up pretty bad. Doesn't sound too cushy if a technologically advanced civilization can't properly maintain the air conditioning.

It was a bit of a joke. "If he goes to prison, tell him to get a room in the east wing- the west wing gets a bit too warm in the summer" or something like that.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2004-08-09 03:15am

Darth_Zod wrote:in the ultimate computer, you have to remember that daystrom programmed the machine with his memory engrams, and thus his morality. the computer was likely basing the instruction off of daystrom's 'traditional' morality of murder = death penalty, rather than present starfleet regulations.

No, that doesn't wash. When Kirk did his patented, "talk the computer to death" sequence, he asked the computer what the penalty for murder was. Clearly, Kirk also knew that penalty was death.

jubjub27 · Post by **jubjub27** » 2004-08-09 05:07am

death penalty??????????? only if you piss section 31 off

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-08-09 07:33am

Stofsk wrote: Hideously powerful telepaths who can control large numbers of people through illusions, who were determined to make human explorers into a slave race - whether or not they even survive to Picard's day and beyond is unknown. It was implied they were dying out and that a human slave population was essential to restore themselves to former greatness.

If this were ever the case, the galaxy would be in some serious shit. Pike was pretty disciplined and fought the Talosians mind war, but he's just one man. And he only got out of that situation by earnestly preparing to commit suicide, with Number One following suit. If the Talosians could capture another ship of hapless explorers they could conceivably have a disproportionate effect on galactic affairs.

Actually, none of that is the real reason why Talos IV was forbidden. Do you remember why the Talosians were dying? Because their power of illusion was grossely addictive and at the same time was destroying their race because it was easier to live in a dream world then to actually try and build anything for themselves. The reason they wanted humans was to terraform their planet for them so that they would be able to perpetuate their culture and when that failed, it was revealed that open relations between humans and Talosians simply wouldn't be possible because humans would learn the powers of illusion and destroy themselves too.

THAT is why Talos IV was off-limits; the power of illusion was simply too mighty to fight and would eventually destroy mankind if released. It is somewhat ironic that the writers of TOS figured this out while the writers of TNG seem to think that 99.9999% of human beings wouldn't lock themselves in a holodeck until they died of exhaustion.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-08-09 07:36am

Lord Poe wrote: No, that doesn't wash. When Kirk did his patented, "talk the computer to death" sequence, he asked the computer what the penalty for murder was. Clearly, Kirk also knew that penalty was death.

Zod's interpretation is the only one that makes sense unless you want to completely throw out what Commodore Stocker said about General Order 7 being the last death penalty on the books.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-08-09 08:03am

The Kernel wrote:
I wrote:*snip*
*snip*

Hmm... why can't both be valid reasons and be seen as a combination of the two?

Your point is well taken, but it's not... quite right. The Talosians dependence on their illusory powers resulted in them forgetting how to build and maintain the equipment necessary to sustain them. This doesn't significantly impact your point other than highlighting how powerful - in the sense of 'addictive' - their mental powers were. However, the risk their powers carried - control a starship's crew from orbit, and perhaps further - also supports my position.

As for your point about TNG... well, what can I say? It would have been nice if they used the holodeck as a kind of 'simulation/training facility/gym' device soley rather than as a "I think I'll 'masturbate' by having sex with a holographic 'woman'." Instead, they seemed to think the holodeck was a necessity for crew morale when nothing of the sort is required. The holodeck's function is expertly shown in the episode "Chain of Command" part one, where they use it to train for a commando mission. 'Holodeck' stories of Barclay and his cyber-whores and that shitty "I'm Sherrif Worf" episode ought to be nuked.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-08-09 08:21am

Stofsk wrote: Hmm... why can't both be valid reasons and be seen as a combination of the two?

Your point is well taken, but it's not... quite right. The Talosians dependence on their illusory powers resulted in them forgetting how to build and maintain the equipment necessary to sustain them. This doesn't significantly impact your point other than highlighting how powerful - in the sense of 'addictive' - their mental powers were. However, the risk their powers carried - control a starship's crew from orbit, and perhaps further - also supports my position.

The Talosian Keeper said to Pike that there could be no formal connection between their two species precicely because humans would learn the Talosian powers of illusion and destroy themselves just as the Talosians had. That seems to be in direct support of my position. Pike wasn't afraid of the Talosians themselves (they didn't really mean mankind any harm) but what their telepathic powers could do to mankind. The Talosians never showed any outright hostility towards humans and were acting in their own self-preservation the entire time. They never destroyed the Enterprise despite numerous opportunities and they never seemed outwardly hostile to Pike's people.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-08-09 08:38am

The Kernel wrote:The Talosian Keeper said to Pike that there could be no formal connection between their two species precicely because humans would learn the Talosian powers of illusion and destroy themselves just as the Talosians had.

I agree.

Pike wasn't afraid of the Talosians themselves (they didn't really mean mankind any harm) but what their telepathic powers could do to mankind.

And this supports my position.

The Talosians never showed any outright hostility towards humans and were acting in their own self-preservation the entire time. They never destroyed the Enterprise despite numerous opportunities and they never seemed outwardly hostile to Pike's people.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree.

They lured the Enterprise to their planet under false pretences, across interstellar distances. Ditto to "The Menagerie" when - from several light years away - they could make Kirk believe he had the real Commodore Mendez on his shuttle. That displays incredible power in itself, but the former event shows the type of character they possess: manipulative.

But then they captured a commanding officer of a Starfleet heavy cruiser. That in itself is a hostile act. They subject Pike to intrusive mind probes and torturous scenarios. It didn't matter that they happened to be illusions, they caused pain and were 'real' in that sense. Pike was pretty self-disciplined and could break through one of the illusions (where the Talosian morphed into that hairy monster), but even that was a fluke. He still couldn't tell if the phaser had worked, nor if a hole had been blasted. Ditto for Number One, who commented that their earlier attempts to blast through the armoured door was successful, but they didn't know it because a thousand Talosians were tricking them. And Vina made the awfully important line: "You can't keep fighting them." It's true, Pike would have eventually broken.

All up, this planet would be rightfully quarantined. You reason that the Talosians are quarantined for the Federation's benefit, an idea I have no problem with. In addition to this they represent an incredibly dangerous threat, and there's no reason to trust them, because deception is an art they're master of. Both of our reasons are compatitible with each other. Humans should not become slaves to the narcotic effects of mental illusions, but in addition to this we know nothing of the society these aliens have, and there is every reason to keep the fuck away from them because of their power to manipulate on a huge scale.