A Federation Military

Executor · Post by **Executor** » 2004-07-10 10:29am

After the Dominion War the Federation decides it needs a proper Military, it starts designing a building small, but powerful force, say a couple hundred ships of all types, marines and small army, its duties to act as defence, rapid reaction force and main offensive arm during any future war. The federation main mission of exploration will stay the same.

It designs the ships as proper warships. What will the ships weapons and appearance be? Id say similar to the defiant ie no saucer or nacalles away from the hull. What would be the composition of the fleet be?

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-07-10 10:32am

No such thing as a "rapid reaction force" in Star Trek...it takes weeks to get from one end of the Federation to the other...

Antares · Post by **Antares** » 2004-07-10 12:13pm

Executor wrote: It designs the ships as proper warships.

Well, if i designed a warship in ST i would reduce all the comfortable stuff inside the current designs. A warship has to be efficient and mustn't be a luxurious cruiser. This list is for a ship the size of a sovereign classed ship:

No super large gangways
No carpet on the ground, maximum of one holodeck for simulating and minimum crew relaxation.
Many auto/manual closeable sections (modular design).
Relying more on always-working technology than on high tech stuff, means no force fields for everthing
Low attack profile
Strafing capabilites
Reduant main power supply + secondary and tertiary power supply
Self-supporting weapon system
Modular weapon system for easy refit later on
Many different weapon system
Modular additional systems like cloak, ablative armor, ...
Main bridge and power generators located deep inside ship and NOT exposed to every light direct hit.
Armed/armored guards overall the ship
Seat belts for anyone on the bridge !!! such that they dont fall off their seats with every light hit.
Sophisticated auto-repair system
Interal auto defense systems against intruders/boarding teams
No fucking families on the ship

I think i just mentioned the most obvious things. Have a look at todays battleships/submarines/carriers. They didnt design the ships for looking cool or something. They have/had to be efficient, nothing more.

Even if it is not canon, but the Achilles Class cruiser matches some of the requirements. That's why i like that ship so much ^^

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-07-10 12:13pm

IIRC the Defiant class lacks good warp speed so it wont be good as a rapid reaction force ship.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2004-07-10 01:02pm

Use the Old TOS/Movie era designs and slap in modern power cores, weapons, shields and drives.

Small, powerful ships

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-07-10 01:14pm

If you want a rapid reaction force your going to have to stick with designs like the Sovereign, Galaxy, and Prometheus. If you want really good warship designs your going to loose speed.

Enola Straight · Post by **Enola Straight** » 2004-07-10 01:52pm

Praxis wrote:No such thing as a "rapid reaction force" in Star Trek...it takes weeks to get from one end of the Federation to the other...

Since Voyager came back with data and hardware concerning the fake NX-01-A Dauntless and quantum Slipstream tech, stolen Borg Transwarp Conduit tech, as well as the aborted warp ten turn-ya-into-a-giant-salamander transwarp drive, the UFP is on the verge of a FTL drive revolution.

Also, with the supposed Temporal Police ban on the future tech in the form of super-duper torpedoes and Batmobile armor expiring in about 20 years, Star Trek: The THIRD Generation oughtta be an interesting place.

Executor · Post by **Executor** » 2004-07-10 01:53pm

Alyeska wrote:If you want a rapid reaction force your going to have to stick with designs like the Sovereign, Galaxy, and Prometheus. If you want really good warship designs your going to loose speed.

For rapid reation force i was talking of being ready to act within very short notice, say a day or less instead of muiltply days or a few weeks, like in DS9 when they retook the station

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2004-07-10 02:39pm

Praxis wrote:No such thing as a "rapid reaction force" in Star Trek...it takes weeks to get from one end of the Federation to the other...

Rapid reaction is all based off your point of view. You're thinking in terms of Star Wars, so no ST could never have a rapid reaction force, but in Star Trek's own terms a rapid reaction force is possible.

In today's terms a Star Trek slow force would be considered absolutely insane by ours.

I can see it now...

"Burgulary in.... suspects in custody" via police inserted by transporter.

FOG3 · Post by **FOG3** » 2004-07-10 07:23pm

Assuming that Defiant's more advanced systems don't make it more resource intensive to construct then a bigger vessel with similar capabilities. Start putting more assets into contruction of Defiant-class vessels. Cease new contruction of Galaxy-class vessels and other such inefficient use of resources. Try to use similar parts and launchers in new vessels to streamline production as much as possible.

Organize Mirandas, Excelsiors, and Defaints into defense fleets either protecting certain valuable convoys or certain sectors of space they can cover easily enough. Of course, they pretty much were already doing this. Begin setting up small listening posts in various parts of space for better tracking of resources within Federation space if similar system not already present.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-07-10 08:25pm

Defiant class ships are too small and to short on range to be used as a Rapid Reaction Force. They lack endurance and range.

Ships like the Prometheus and Sovereign as the heavy hitters along with Intrepids and War GCS's actualy make for a good fleet.

However a Galaxy MMC like I designed would idealy fix issues with the Galaxy design in general.

Executor · Post by **Executor** » 2004-07-10 08:36pm

Alyeska wrote:Defiant class ships are too small and to short on range to be used as a Rapid Reaction Force. They lack endurance and range.

Ships like the Prometheus and Sovereign as the heavy hitters along with Intrepids and War GCS's actualy make for a good fleet.

However a Galaxy MMC like I designed would idealy fix issues with the Galaxy design in general.

none of those are true warships tho. What would a proper fed battleship be like, i dont think thed have a saucer or exreme exposed nacalles. it would be similar to defiant style but bigger, prob be heavy on torpedo launchers, even turreted pulse phasers, and heavy fed style armour.

Why would dedicated warships be slower? thed have more power then there 'civilian' counterparts, any reduction because of they nacalles being at the hull would be made up my the extra power wouldnt it?

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2004-07-10 08:46pm

Executor wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Defiant class ships are too small and to short on range to be used as a Rapid Reaction Force. They lack endurance and range.

Ships like the Prometheus and Sovereign as the heavy hitters along with Intrepids and War GCS's actualy make for a good fleet.

However a Galaxy MMC like I designed would idealy fix issues with the Galaxy design in general.
none of those are true warships tho. What would a proper fed battleship be like, i dont think thed have a saucer or exreme exposed nacalles. it would be similar to defiant style but bigger, prob be heavy on torpedo launchers, even turreted pulse phasers, and heavy fed style armour.

Why would dedicated warships be slower? thed have more power then there 'civilian' counterparts, any reduction because of they nacalles being at the hull would be made up my the extra power wouldnt it?

It's cannon fact that the more streamlined a ship it is the better speed it's capable of. It's like aerodynamics. So there's only so much more power does for trek ship speed.

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2004-07-10 09:20pm

The Warwolves are working on just this problem!

Stay tuned....

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-07-10 09:50pm

darthdavid wrote: It's cannon fact that the more streamlined a ship it is the better speed it's capable of. It's like aerodynamics. So there's only so much more power does for trek ship speed.

There is no demonstrated link between increasing streamlining of Federation ships and their increasing speed.

And it's "canon" FFS.

FOG3 · Post by **FOG3** » 2004-07-10 09:59pm

Alyseka wrote:Defiant class ships are too small and to short on range to be used as a Rapid Reaction Force. They lack endurance and range.

Ships like the Prometheus and Sovereign as the heavy hitters along with Intrepids and War GCS's actually make for a good fleet.

However a Galaxy MMC like I designed would ideally fix issues with the Galaxy design in general.

Acknowledged but his specification were:

Executor wrote:For rapid reation force i was talking of being ready to act within very short notice, say a day or less instead of muiltply days or a few weeks, like in DS9 when they retook the station

I'm pretty sure even the fastest Fed ship can't cover even the length of the UFP's territory in a day or a few days. So because you want a quick response to a threat you pretty much need a lot of patrols that can move in on an invasion into the UFP. Small and older ships are cheap, pack decent firepower, you can make a lot of them, and would be able to fend off small attacks or delay larger ones. This would allow quicker more powerful fleet reserves like the Prometheus, Sovereigns, and such that might be anywhere to begin moving in response. Listening posts would represent a cheap way, I'd think, to track uncloaked vessels in UFP space and give them intelligence to respond without having to send a ship to investigate everything.

I was just trying to come up with something the UFP might actually do and be able to do along those lines. The UFP isn't exactly big on invading anyone so I cut out the offense and well it seemed a decent idea to me.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-07-10 10:40pm

Executor wrote:For rapid reation force i was talking of being ready to act within very short notice, say a day or less instead of muiltply days or a few weeks, like in DS9 when they retook the station

Not possible with the Federation; too much territory for too few ships to cover. It's possible to keep the bulk of the fleet near key systems and along the borders, but even then you'll be hard-pressed to muster a fleet on such short notice.

Listening posts would represent a cheap way, I'd think, to track uncloaked vessels in UFP space and give them intelligence to respond without having to send a ship to investigate everything.

They already have listening posts IIRC, but due to the ranges involved the listening posts simply cannot provide any great level of detail. You still need starships on patrol to investigate.

Why would dedicated warships be slower? thed have more power then there 'civilian' counterparts, any reduction because of they nacalles being at the hull would be made up my the extra power wouldnt it?

Please provide even the slightest shred of evidence that Starfleet can produce reactors capable of producing more power than their current top-of-the-line starships can (i.e. Soveriegn, Prometheus).

Cease new contruction of Galaxy-class vessels and other such inefficient use of resources.

How do you know they're still producing the Galaxy class?

Since Voyager came back with data and hardware concerning the fake NX-01-A Dauntless and quantum Slipstream tech, stolen Borg Transwarp Conduit tech, as well as the aborted warp ten turn-ya-into-a-giant-salamander transwarp drive, the UFP is on the verge of a FTL drive revolution.

I would really just as soon pretend that Voyager never happened, but I suppose we can't have that.

No carpet on the ground

What the hell difference does that make?

Sophisticated auto-repair system

Do tell us about the episode in which any Starfleet vessel ever showed an ability to auto-repair itself.

No fucking families on the ship

Good god, it's been nearly a decade since TNG ended and people are still bitching about it. It almost makes me wonder if Gene made some of the decisions he did just to spite his detractors who said he'd never get away with it.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-07-10 11:01pm

Howedar wrote:
darthdavid wrote: It's cannon fact that the more streamlined a ship it is the better speed it's capable of. It's like aerodynamics. So there's only so much more power does for trek ship speed.
There is no demonstrated link between increasing streamlining of Federation ships and their increasing speed.

And it's "canon" FFS.

Its close enough to canon seeing as the people who designed the ships stated why they are designed as such.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-07-10 11:04pm

Executor wrote:none of those are true warships tho. What would a proper fed battleship be like, i dont think thed have a saucer or exreme exposed nacalles. it would be similar to defiant style but bigger, prob be heavy on torpedo launchers, even turreted pulse phasers, and heavy fed style armour.

Why would dedicated warships be slower? thed have more power then there 'civilian' counterparts, any reduction because of they nacalles being at the hull would be made up my the extra power wouldnt it?

Incorrect. The Defiant, Akira, and Prometheus are dedicated warships. The Sovereign class retains multi mission capacity, but it is heavily biassed towards combat. Dedicated battleships designed solely for war will either be similar in scope to the Prometheus, only larger in scale, or they will be designed to be optimized for war and as such will be slower then their conventional cousins.

The Sovereign has one of the most powerful cores in existance and it can make the ship move only so fast. Simply putting more power into the design does not make it faster. The warp nacelles have to be specificaly designed and the hull of the ship must be fit to specific limitations in order to maximize speed. This is why Starfleet ships are designed as they are. Not because they want to, but because they have to.

Thag · Post by **Thag** » 2004-07-10 11:18pm

Aren't the Saber and Steamrunner also essentially warships as well?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-07-10 11:25pm

Thag wrote:Aren't the Saber and Steamrunner also essentially warships as well?

Its assumed they are, but we don't really know. Given the Sabre's size, it probably is given what we know about it.

Thag · Post by **Thag** » 2004-07-10 11:48pm

I'm pretty sure I've heard the Steamrunner designated as a destroyer before.

Question on this Rapid Reaction Force: is it supposed to stop an incoming attack on it's own, or is it supposed to tie up an incoming force long enough for the main fleet to pull together and counterattack?

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-07-11 02:45am

none of those are true warships tho. What would a proper fed battleship be like, i dont think thed have a saucer or exreme exposed nacalles. it would be similar to defiant style but bigger, prob be heavy on torpedo launchers, even turreted pulse phasers, and heavy fed style armour.

We can only speculate what a Federation battleship would be like since we never saw one. My guess would be it would be similar to the Dominion battleship or the Klingon Neghvar since they are true battleships. Primary weapons would consist of quantum torpedoes and pulse phasers as they heavy hitting weapons. Beam phasers would probobly be the same type as the Sovereign's phaser array's.

Executor · Post by **Executor** » 2004-07-11 04:19am

darthdavid wrote:its cannon fact that the more streamlined a ship it is the better speed it's capable of. It's like aerodynamics. So there's only so much more power does for trek ship speed.

Where is this stated?

Executor · Post by **Executor** » 2004-07-11 04:33am

Alyeska wrote:Incorrect. The Defiant, Akira, and Prometheus are dedicated warships. The Sovereign class retains multi mission capacity, but it is heavily biassed towards combat. Dedicated battleships designed solely for war will either be similar in scope to the Prometheus, only larger in scale, or they will be designed to be optimized for war and as such will be slower then their conventional cousins.

The Sovereign has one of the most powerful cores in existance and it can make the ship move only so fast. Simply putting more power into the design does not make it faster. The warp nacelles have to be specificaly designed and the hull of the ship must be fit to specific limitations in order to maximize speed. This is why Starfleet ships are designed as they are. Not because they want to, but because they have to.

It's stated that the Defiant is the only Warship, I don think the others are dedicated warships they still seem like civilian ships just with enhanced combat performance.

These new ships are specificailly designed for war, yes the sovereign might be the most powerful at the moment, but dont you think thed be designing more powerful cores, or that a Fed Dreadnought might have multiply cores.

Many other forces in ST dont use warp nacelles on pylons and seem just as fast, or faster,

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