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We know the treknobabble how a holodude is formed. Bottom line: a human-looking construct formed of hologram and forcefield so you can see and touch him when it's active.

But how authentic does the holodeck generate the form? If you touch the holodude do you feel body warmth? Can you press on its muscles to feel the resiliency under the skin, and then fell the bones underneath? Is it that authentic that you can actually forget it's a holodeck construct? Does it render each and every hair on its head to be lifelike?

Has this been explored in any episodes that I've missed? Or at least in some official literature?



And no, it's not because I'm fantasizing about holosex in the holodeck. Not at all. Nosiree...

Maybe a little.

Visitors have to be told that the holodoc is a hologram. Holograms can be made indistinguishable from the real thing.

It can be made to be lifelike, but i'd imagine that would eat up considerable computing resources to do so, simply given the sheer amount of detail involved in creating lifelike simulations. Plus there's all sorts of other giveaways (notably in personality) where you could tell you weren't dealing with a real person, unless the program writers were incredibly careful.

Well, their holograms can be largely authentic, enough so that the Doctor was able to create functional vital organs for Neelix while he was in a holobed out of holograms, though the holobed wasn't good enough to allow Neelix to move at all. I'd assume that things in the holodeck emit heat and feel realistic.

Let's not forget Minuet...

Hey cool, there's a holodeck thread right now.
Yesterday i was thinking about the following:

In ST they got holodecks for your amusement. I think it's all too clear what "amusement" means in this case. AFAIK in ST society is NOT controlled by any form of drug/chemical stuff. They are ALL too human, so hormons are still active. So what are holodecks for? Of course having sex whenever you want without any related problems.

So my question. Why would someone have a real mate apart from having offspring? Holo-sex is much uncomplicated than real sex. Wouldnt this disrupt a human society than isnt controlled/forced into this society with other mechanisms? I mean, (real) sexual realtionships are one of the main pillars our society is based on.

Next thing are friends... or more basic means ANY kind of social realationship. They can be simulated as well. Why the hell would somebody life in "reality" if a hololife is so much better?

If holodecks are common on earth, what is happening to people how like holodecks more than reality? If they have the status to use/stay in a holodeck all day long, who would care about this?

OT:
There is no (visually) money in ST earth society. People are working just because of the work itself not for their families supply their own life.
Not all humans are equal in their skills. So what is happening to the less skilled people? What happens to those who just DONT WANT to work?
Since there is no poverty/disease in ST they cannot be just forgotten or something... so how are "unsocial" people forced to take their place in society?

Antares wrote:Hey cool, there's a holodeck thread right now.
Yesterday i was thinking about the following:

In ST they got holodecks for your amusement. I think it's all too clear what "amusement" means in this case. AFAIK in ST society is NOT controlled by any form of drug/chemical stuff. They are ALL too human, so hormons are still active. So what are holodecks for? Of course having sex whenever you want without any related problems.

actually. . . .several fringe cultures in star trek (usually not in the federation) have drug use and drug problems. the wordl tasha yar came from was such a world. The most notable use for holodecks aside from sex is so that crewmen can 'get away' from the starship environment for awhile without actually having to leave. D&D Fantasies, War Simulations, etc. could all be possible within limitations. Basically it's like one gigantic ultra-real LARP (live action roleplaying, fyi)

So my question. Why would someone have a real mate apart from having offspring? Holo-sex is much uncomplicated than real sex. Wouldnt this disrupt a human society than isnt controlled/forced into this society with other mechanisms? I mean, (real) sexual realtionships are one of the main pillars our society is based on.

programmed personalities usually aren't as enjoyable as the real thing, especially when you consider the realism of the personality is limited by the one that makes it.

Next thing are friends... or more basic means ANY kind of social realationship. They can be simulated as well. Why the hell would somebody life in "reality" if a hololife is so much better?

hololife isn't better for the most part. In ST humanity is supposedly advanced enough to not rely upon escapism so much.

If holodecks are common on earth, what is happening to people how like holodecks more than reality? If they have the status to use/stay in a holodeck all day long, who would care about this?

i dunno. their relatives, maybe. real life family and friends. people aren't born in holodecks after all.

There is no (visually) money in ST earth society. People are working just because of the work itself not for their families supply their own life.
Not all humans are equal in their skills. So what is happening to the less skilled people? What happens to those who just DONT WANT to work?
Since there is no poverty/disease in ST they cannot be just forgotten or something... so how are "unsocial" people forced to take their place in society?

Encounter at Farpoint actually does hint that the federation has some type of commerce base going, though it may be in the way of credits rather than actual money.

The Nomad wrote:Let's not forget Minuet...

I got the impression that it was her "personality" that was special, not her physical attributes.

In one of the TNG "Holodeck Malfunctions Episodes", it showed that Holograms are hollow inside. So I would assume that they are just a forcefield shell with a fancy texture painted on, kind of like modern day video game models.

Of course, if you believe Voyager, holograms can be used to recreate living tissue. i.e. Neelix Lungs.

Macross wrote:

The Nomad wrote:Let's not forget Minuet...

I got the impression that it was her "personality" that was special, not her physical attributes.

In one of the TNG "Holodeck Malfunctions Episodes", it showed that Holograms are hollow inside. So I would assume that they are just a forcefield shell with a fancy texture painted on, kind of like modern day video game models.

Of course, if you believe Voyager, holograms can be used to recreate living tissue. i.e. Neelix Lungs.

It probably depends on how computer power you want to use. On voyager early seasons they were always worried about how much processing power the doctor was using up. They did not want him to expand his program.

Old Plympto wrote:We know the treknobabble how a holodude is formed. Bottom line: a human-looking construct formed of hologram and forcefield so you can see and touch him when it's active.

But how authentic does the holodeck generate the form? If you touch the holodude do you feel body warmth? Can you press on its muscles to feel the resiliency under the skin, and then fell the bones underneath? Is it that authentic that you can actually forget it's a holodeck construct? Does it render each and every hair on its head to be lifelike?

Has this been explored in any episodes that I've missed? Or at least in some official literature?



And no, it's not because I'm fantasizing about holosex in the holodeck. Not at all. Nosiree...

Maybe a little.

I forget the episode name, but when Barclay was wasting too much time in the holodeck, it was implied that he had 'erm...dirtier' programes then the one with Bev and Troy acting like groupies and Riker and Laforge being dorky.

Physically, the holodeck is largely indistinguishable from the real thing; see TNG "Ship in a Bottle", where they had to use other clues to figure out they were in the holodeck and not actually aboard the Enterprise.

Even though Holograms may be life life their AI varies a lot. In the Voyger episode about the renegade "photonic lifeforms" there were holograms with only 40 subroutines. Even though they looked life like they were very dumb.

Macross wrote:

The Nomad wrote:Let's not forget Minuet...

I got the impression that it was her "personality" that was special, not her physical attributes.

That's what I meant.

Of course, if you believe Voyager, holograms can be used to recreate living tissue. i.e. Neelix Lungs.

Well, you just need to recreate a membrane that allows gaseous exchanges with the bloodstream... forcefields could do that, I guess.

Knife wrote:I forget the episode name, but when Barclay was wasting too much time in the holodeck, it was implied that he had 'erm...dirtier' programes then the one with Bev and Troy acting like groupies and Riker and Laforge being dorky.

And the Voyager one where he lived on the holo-Voyager and had a whole holo-crew, which works in with the 'why ever leave?' part of the topic.

Why would anyone have sex the old fashioned way? Because they want more than sex. They want a relationship. The only holograms that have had anything close are the Doc and Minuet.

Why would anyone ever want to leave a holodeck? Because it's an illusion. None of it is really happening. Take Nog escaping into the holosuite. He couldn't stand it after a while.

What uses are there for holodecks aside from sex? Saving an entire species. The Hirogen.

There was one DS9 episode the other day where an 'accident' (sabotage of the runabout) killed Sisko, Kira, Worf, Dax, and O'Brien just as the transporter of DS9 had locked on, there were able to save their transporter buffer patterns, but the ENTIRE STATION of Deep Space Nine was unable to contain the patterns of just 5 people, so the computer saved them in the holodeck. Apparently, the holodeck didn't have enough memory either, but could keep them running in realtime. If the holodeck were shut off, the buffers would be lost, but until then the holodeck replaced 5 characters with EXACT REPLICAS of the 5 crewmembers.

This is strange- it implies the Holodeck's processor cache is bigger than it's actual storage space, since it couldn't store the patterns of 5 people but it could process all 5 at once.

Perhaps the quantum patterns are stored within a reversed-flux covariant tetryon processor subspace matrix

Minuet would be a good example of my concerns about the holodeck. I can't remember if Riker touched her or kissed her.... 11001001 (hope I got that right) was more than ten years ago, and I never saw it again.

Let's say the Bynars programmed a simulation which had a mature, sexually and psychologically attractive personality. If Riker held her hand and it felt like, say plastic or her hair felt like ramen, that would jolt him back to reality and mess up the Ent-D shipjacking.

So to elaborate more on my original post, how would the holodeck forcefield generator greate things like body heat and flesh resiliency, especially if you had to liplock with the simulation. How would the field know how to push against our skin and flesh just right?

Perhaps the quantum patterns are stored within a reversed-flux covariant tetryon processor subspace matrix

I agree.

Praxis wrote:There was one DS9 episode the other day where an 'accident' (sabotage of the runabout) killed Sisko, Kira, Worf, Dax, and O'Brien just as the transporter of DS9 had locked on, there were able to save their transporter buffer patterns, but the ENTIRE STATION of Deep Space Nine was unable to contain the patterns of just 5 people, so the computer saved them in the holodeck. Apparently, the holodeck didn't have enough memory either, but could keep them running in realtime. If the holodeck were shut off, the buffers would be lost, but until then the holodeck replaced 5 characters with EXACT REPLICAS of the 5 crewmembers.

As far as we can tell, a transporter destroys a body at the source location and then replicates it at the destination. Some "energy" that defines the body's form is transmitted from the source to the destination to make that replication possible, and it's very difficult to store that energy for any length of time; the pattern buffer can't keep it from losing resolution.

The solution in the DS9 episode was to simply replicate the bodies without the "mental patterns" that make them work, allowing the holodeck program to work them like marionettes. The separation of their "mental patterns" from their "energy" must have been part of the transporter malfunction, since they're normally kept together automatically. In any case, they eventually resolved the problem by beaming the bodies off the holodeck, reuniting them with their mental patterns, and materializing the matched up bits on the Defiant.

Praxis wrote:... there were able to save their transporter buffer patterns, but the ENTIRE STATION of Deep Space Nine was unable to contain the patterns of just 5 people, so the computer saved them in the holodeck. Apparently, the holodeck didn't have enough memory either, but could keep them running in realtime. If the holodeck were shut off, the buffers would be lost, but until then the holodeck replaced 5 characters with EXACT REPLICAS of the 5 crewmembers.

I dont know, but as a computer science student i smell some stinking shit here.

First of all, i didnt watch the episode you were speaking about Praxis. The following comments should blame star trek and not you.

there were able to save their transporter buffer patterns

So they saved it... ok... check

Buffer in this case sounds more like a full storage buffer than a streaming buffer. If it was a streaming buffer, then lots of information would have been lost already. Transporter "lock on" thus means a complete storage of relevant information since "transporting" normally takes some seconds. Perhaps they stream it after they "locked on" them, but that isnt really made clear in ST.

Anyway streaming isnt possible. They either got ALL relevant information and could replicate persons in this case, or they wont be able to do it. All information in this case also means including mechanisms like in RAID 5 to recreate lost information.

Streaming would also be very risky, because of the long time beamin g takes. If they are already starting the matter-destruction on one side and the recreation sequence on the other side, they would lose both entities if a system failure occurs meanwhile.

I might be completly wrong here, but all my knowledge of computer systems and solving problems with them rebels against this description.

But there's one epsisode which gives me some self-confidence. In the TNG episode with the Dyson sphere and Scotty being stored inside aging transporter buffers. If there wanst a mechanism to store a COMPLETE transporter pattern, the hole episode whould make no sense.

...Deep Space Nine was unable to contain the patterns of just 5 people

Like i stated above i think streaming isnt possible, so they had to store everything. But now they can't. A very old ship can store the patterns of 2 guys (ok one lost) for many years, but a space station with up-to-date transporters can't.

Sorry, this just stinks, for many reasons.

Well, the Holodoc was able to spend three years on that planet with the sped-up time without being discovered, so it seems that ST holograms are likely quite realistic.

Of course, his 29th century portable emitter might have added a bit more realism to the simulation, in ways that wouldn't be apparent on TV.

Drooling Iguana wrote:Well, the Holodoc was able to spend three years on that planet with the sped-up time without being discovered, so it seems that ST holograms are likely quite realistic.

Of course, his 29th century portable emitter might have added a bit more realism to the simulation, in ways that wouldn't be apparent on TV.

keep in mind the holo-doc had an advanced personality and AI compared to standard run of the mill programs. He was also likely able to manage to avoid undergoing any real detailed examinations to keep from letting it slip in that fashion.

Old Plympto wrote:So to elaborate more on my original post, how would the holodeck forcefield generator greate things like body heat and flesh resiliency, especially if you had to liplock with the simulation. How would the field know how to push against our skin and flesh just right?

Quite simply, forcefields could stimulate your nerves with electrical discharges, small pressure fields and thermal gradients ( a bit like the Matrix does, only here it does not send the signal directly to your brain, but through your standard sensory paths ).
Or the forcefields could simply replicate the behaviour and structure of normal matter, not necessarily to a molecular resolution ( computation requirements would sky-rocket ) but just enough to fool human nerves.
Both methods are somewhat similar. I don't know if there is enough evidence to tell them apart ( if someone want to wield Occam's Razor here, please be my guest )

Praxis wrote:There was one DS9 episode the other day where an 'accident' (sabotage of the runabout) killed Sisko, Kira, Worf, Dax, and O'Brien just as the transporter of DS9 had locked on, there were able to save their transporter buffer patterns, but the ENTIRE STATION of Deep Space Nine was unable to contain the patterns of just 5 people, so the computer saved them in the holodeck. Apparently, the holodeck didn't have enough memory either, but could keep them running in realtime. If the holodeck were shut off, the buffers would be lost, but until then the holodeck replaced 5 characters with EXACT REPLICAS of the 5 crewmembers.

This is strange- it implies the Holodeck's processor cache is bigger than it's actual storage space, since it couldn't store the patterns of 5 people but it could process all 5 at once.

If I remember correctly it wasnt the bodies that was the problem, it was the mental patterns that took up so much space. The Body patterns could be stored at the molecular level, but the mental patterns needed to be stored at the quantum level or something like that. So the Computer erased everything in its storage memory to make room to store the mental patterns and dumped the physical bodies into the active memory (RAM) of the holodeck. Thats why they couldnt kill the people in the holodeck, because they would then be removed from the active memory.

The one holo-chick that Paris liked tried to seduce Tuvok by having him feel her muscles, so I'd guess that they're pretty damn accurate (what, with all the raunchy escapades Tuvok does it's pretty clear he'd know exactly what real chicks feel like).

Master of Ossus wrote:The one holo-chick that Paris liked tried to seduce Tuvok by having him feel her muscles, so I'd guess that they're pretty damn accurate (what, with all the raunchy escapades Tuvok does it's pretty clear he'd know exactly what real chicks feel like).

He's married with 5 children IIRC