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Sorry if this has been asked before, i did i search and didn't get anything.

Anyway, i was waching The Next Genetarion, the one where teh Klingons are having a civil war and Sella is introduced. Was it ever adequately explained how Yar ended up on the Enterprise C when she was consumed by a bad tembered oil slick?

It apparently never happened. The Federation was at war at the time.

Lord Pounder wrote:Anyway, i was waching The Next Genetarion, the one where teh Klingons are having a civil war and Sella is introduced. Was it ever adequately explained how Yar ended up on the Enterprise C when she was consumed by a bad tembered oil slick?

I'd put money on the War Enterprise not being able to encounter Armus due to the aforementioned war with the Klingons. Tasha Yar in this alternate reality would obviously survive an encounter she would never face, so there really is no explanation needed. It's easy to explain: Armus killed her; if she doesn't meet Armus, he can't kill her. So in this alternate war reality, she evidentally never met Armus. End of story.

In the Klingon War timeline, Starfleet is totally a military organisation. Which means there will never be a "ship's counsellor" position aboard Federation starships. Which means Deanna Troi is never assigned to the Enterprise, which means she is never aboard a shuttlecraft that crashlands on the planet Armus is marooned on, which means the Enterprise is never diverted there, which means Lt. Yar never encounters Armus and is not killed.

See ther Episode "Yesterdy's Enterprise" Basically the E-C is pulled throug rift to a new timeline where Feds are losing in a war to the Klingons, due to this Tasha wasn't killed. Guinin tells Picard to sent the E-C back because it results in a much better timeline. Thye Do but alternate Yra geos back with the E-C as well becuase she talked with Guinan and found out her death in the other timeline was utterly pointless. Thus she wants to count for sumthing and die foghting on the E-C. She is instead captured and fucks a romulan General to escape and gives birth to Sela, she tries to escape but Sela raise the alarm and Yar is shot.

Any questions?

Lord Pounder wrote:Was it ever adequately explained how Yar ended up on the Enterprise C when she was consumed by a bad tembered oil slick?

The Tasha Yar who ended up on the Enterprise-C was from an alternate timeline in which the Federation had been at war with the Klingon Empire for decades. Some of the differences in this "Klingon War" timeline include...

1) The Enterprise-C was not destroyed defending the Klingon outpost at Khitomer, so the Klingon Empire never forged an alliance with the Federation.

2) Worf therefore didn't survive to become a Starfleet officer.

3) The Enterprise-D was serving in the frontlines of the war, so it never visited Vagra II, and Tasha Yar was never killed by Armus.

Thanks for clearing that up, it always nagged me.

Anyone else find the whole idea that the Klingons conquered the Romulans and were close to beating the Federation total BS?

Aya wrote:Anyone else find the whole idea that the Klingons conquered the Romulans and were close to beating the Federation total BS?

Kind of.

My memory is frelled, did the Klingons conquer the Romulans in that alternate reality? I don't recall that, but it would make sense.

Stofsk wrote:

Aya wrote:Anyone else find the whole idea that the Klingons conquered the Romulans and were close to beating the Federation total BS?

Kind of.

My memory is frelled, did the Klingons conquer the Romulans in that alternate reality? I don't recall that, but it would make sense.

It was never actually stated but implied.

The bigger question I feel is this: Was Sela telling the truth about her origins? Or was simply a Tal Shiar measure meant to keep Picard and the ENT-D off balance?

Therein lies the problem: The Klingons would have to use most of the forces to keep their holdings in the former RSE, because I'd imagine the Romulans would be fighting a guerella war against them. Yet, we're supposed to believe that the Klingons have enough ships and troops to wage a successful war against the Federation.

JME2 wrote:It was never actually stated but implied.

Then the Romulans suck.

The bigger question I feel is this: Was Sela telling the truth about her origins? Or was simply a Tal Shiar measure meant to keep Picard and the ENT-D off balance?

Her origins make sense. Why would the Tal Shiar bother to go down such a convoluted path which wasn't guaranteed to work? Hell, it was almost guaranteed to fail - Picard almost immediately said that Sela's uncanny appearance would have no bearing on their duties. Not to mention Tasha Yar was one of many officers and crew Picard had seen die under him. There's no guarantee he would bend or buckle just because of one Romulan chick with a resemblance; so that leaves Sela telling the truth. Why she would choose to reveal her sob story is frankly irrelevant, considering the little effect it had on Picard's judgement.

I never liked Sela. She never came off as an interesting villain or challenging threat.

Stofsk wrote:I never liked Sela. She never came off as an interesting villain or challenging threat.

Well then, kudos to you for her not appearing in Nemesis - though Logan states he tried to fit her - and Spock for that matter - into the film and in Sela's case, she could have been Donatra. However it was not to be.

But screw Sela; I wanted to ol' pointy ears on the silver screen one more time...

I never liked Sela because she was the proper villian. I hated her. Sela and Spock would have been a hell of a lot better in Nemesis. Just scratch Schinzon all together.

Have Sela assisinate the senate. With the power vacume Spock rises to power as the preator and sues for peace with the Federation. Picard and Enterprise-E are naturaly sent. This all of course was predicted as part of a plan by Sela to get all three of her worst enemies into one area and kill them. You see Picard, Data, and Spock runied her and she spent a very long time on the Reman moon with the Reman slaves. She allies with them promising to give them freedom if they help her kill her Nemesis's. During a climatic battle where the Enterprise-E transports some Marines to rescue Data, Picard, and Spock from Sela, Data is killed.

There, I just wrote a better plot idea, preserved several of the movie elements, and made it a lot more convincing as a Trek movie. Rather then having a throw away aspect with Janeway, they could have had a joint Klingon/Federation task force sent to rescue the Enterprise-E lead by Worf (who should not be on the Enterprise) on the Defiant and Martok leading a royal Imperial guard squadron. That gives us a DS9 nod even.

Actually, the events of Yesterday's Enterprise had nothing to do directly with the attack on Khitomer. Enterprise C was destroyed fighting Romulans over Narendra III, not Khitomer. The Intrepid helped rescue survivors after the Romulans attacked Khitomer, and didn't engage them. In the alternate timeline, it's probable that such a rescue never took place, and either Worf died or was found by Klingons instead. I don't know for sure if Khitomer was before or after Narendra, but I would bet on after, and Starfleet policy changed after Narendra, so ships let the raid happen then do the rescue.

As for the Romulans in that alternate timeline, no mention is made of the Klingons doing anything to them. Possibly, a war with Starfleet was more important to them than taking a chunk out of the Romulans. Raids like that seem commonplace between them, and probably aren't much of an excuse for war compared to Starfleet cowardice. The Romulans would have either stayed neutral or covertly supplied the Klingons, or both, figuring to let their enemies destroy each other. I might have thought more about this n the last few minutes than the writers did.

I imagine Sela's as dead as her mom. After 2 straight, huge public embarrassments to the Empire that could both be laid at her feet, they'd probably kill her for simple incompetence. Also, I'm sure the official story on the Duras and Vulcan affairs was that she was acting alone, or that she was involved in a conspiracy against the Empire.

Given the implied level of cooperation between the Klingon and Romulan governments in TOS The Enterprise Incident, it's possible that in the alternate timeline the Klingons and Romulans rekindled that cooperation (or at least signed a non-aggression treaty) with the shared interest of seeing the Federation fall.

I would presume that in the alternate timeline, the Romulans are simply laying low and biding their time, waiting until the Klingons have the Federation subjugated when they'll strike at the Klingons.

Aly: Your movie idea still has the utterly fatal flaw of Tomalak not once being mentioned. Tomalak should have been in Donatra's place, assisting his former enemy.

Uraniun235 wrote:Given the implied level of cooperation between the Klingon and Romulan governments in TOS The Enterprise Incident, it's possible that in the alternate timeline the Klingons and Romulans rekindled that cooperation (or at least signed a non-aggression treaty) with the shared interest of seeing the Federation fall.

I would presume that in the alternate timeline, the Romulans are simply laying low and biding their time, waiting until the Klingons have the Federation subjugated when they'll strike at the Klingons.

I think everyone's forgetting that the alternate reality depicted in Yesterday's Enterprise was a branch off around the time the Narendra III massacre, which was what, 20 years prior to TNG? If so, the Romulans would STILL be behind their borders, isolating themselves from the rest of the galaxy. Considering I can't even remember if they were mentioned or not, it would make sense that the Rommies haven't reestablished contact with the rest of the AQ. Hell, they may have been too busy encountering the Borg (remember the impetus for their recontact? Also, Romulan territory runs closest to the Borg than anyone else)

Aly: Your movie idea still has the utterly fatal flaw of Tomalak not once being mentioned. Tomalak should have been in Donatra's place, assisting his former enemy.

Tomalok would have been cool. Andreas Katsulas to the rescue!

Hmm, he did seem the type who might support the Federation if only because he likes the Cold War over a Hot War.

Alyeska wrote:I never liked Sela because she was the proper villian. I hated her. Sela and Spock would have been a hell of a lot better in Nemesis. Just scratch Schinzon all together.

Have Sela assisinate the senate. With the power vacume Spock rises to power as the preator and sues for peace with the Federation. Picard and Enterprise-E are naturaly sent. This all of course was predicted as part of a plan by Sela to get all three of her worst enemies into one area and kill them. You see Picard, Data, and Spock runied her and she spent a very long time on the Reman moon with the Reman slaves. She allies with them promising to give them freedom if they help her kill her Nemesis's. During a climatic battle where the Enterprise-E transports some Marines to rescue Data, Picard, and Spock from Sela, Data is killed.

There, I just wrote a better plot idea, preserved several of the movie elements, and made it a lot more convincing as a Trek movie. Rather then having a throw away aspect with Janeway, they could have had a joint Klingon/Federation task force sent to rescue the Enterprise-E lead by Worf (who should not be on the Enterprise) on the Defiant and Martok leading a royal Imperial guard squadron. That gives us a DS9 nod even.

This is a good movie idea. It is better than the actual Nemesis plot. Rather than making up a total new character never mentioned before in the Trek shows like Shinzon using known villain is good.

Stofsk wrote: I think everyone's forgetting that the alternate reality depicted in Yesterday's Enterprise was a branch off around the time the Narendra III massacre, which was what, 20 years prior to TNG?

I think Narendra III was more like 60 years ago. It was the Khitmomer Massacre that was 20 years prior 'cos thats the one Worf was the survivor of.

Wrong. The Khitomer Massacre took place in 2246, the Narendra III massacre took place in 2244 (source: Star Trek encyclopedia, which I'm guessing extrapolates on the facts from the show - I haven't seen the episodes in question - "Yesterday's Enterprise" and "Sins of the Father" - for awhile). These dates establish that Narendra III took place before Khitomer, and were in a relative recent timeline - I submit that because Narendra III was successful in the alternate timeline, the Klingons may not have known who was responsible for the attack. Given the Romulan's cunning, it's entirely possible they planted evidence that suggested a Federation sneak attack. Then you have a War between the Federation and Klingons, with the latter probably winning due to being blindly ferocious.