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All,

Is Chief O'Brien a sucker? I mean after all...It seems like everyone in TNG is an officer, except for poor old Chief. In the TOS, there were yeomen and engineers mates and crewmen...officers were limited to the bridge crew.

In TNG on the other hand, almost everyone (with the exception of O'Brien) is an officer. Ensigns, Lts...

So is the Chief a sucker? what crock of bull did the starfleet recruiter sell him?

"So son, you wanna be in starfleet...why not be enlisted"

O'Brien - "But isn't everyone an officer?"

"yeah, but they're not important...by being enlisted you can eventually work your way up the rank structure...with no other enlisted people...you'll soon be a Chief...and with a special rank that can be used as a nickname you'll recieve character shields and won't be the "Red Shirt" who dies"

O'Brien - "sounds cool...sign me up!"

So basically, is there still an enlisted force in TNG? Or does everyone but O'Brien get that "Vaunted" Starfleet Academy education and get to be an officer?

Maybe that's the problem with Starfleet...There's nothing more dangerous in the galaxy than a 2nd Lieutenant/Ensign who has an idea!

(I would know...I am one!)

The problem with O'Brien, and TNG era Star Trek, is that they literally didn't know what a military organisation has as ranks. The stupid writers just thought everyone goes to the Academy, and no-one enlists. O'Brien himself was originally a Lieutenant. Then sometime during the show he became a "Chief" but I think his rank pips never changed. Then in DS9 it seemed the same thing, he was still a "Chief" but it wasn't clear he was a Noncom. Not until season 4 in that Jem'Hadar episode where a enemy soldier refers to him as a Noncom and he replies affirmatively.

Now if you can sort out that mess you can get a whole BOX of cookies. As it stands, I think the writers just fucked up and didn't cover their arses.

It might have something to do with the pencil-necks writing things somehow associating "transporter chief" = CPO despite wearing Lt.(JG) insignia..... or, as you say, they don't know jack shit about naval ranks or terminology. By their thinking, they are likely to assume "Chief Engineer" and "Chief Cook" have the same rank.....

Poor O'Brien. He started out as a Lt. and Chief Transporter Operator. Then he got sucked down to DS9's "Chief of Operations" and can get ordered around by Nog. Then they stick him as professor of some course no one will ever take.

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Poor O'Brien. He started out as a Lt. and Chief Transporter Operator. Then he got sucked down to DS9's "Chief of Operations" and can get ordered around by Nog. Then they stick him as professor of some course no one will ever take.

I find it funny that the head of engineering for an entire station isn't considered officer worthy. The only way I could solve things is to have him as a "Chief Warrant Officer" or something - below officers, above NCOs. Still, getting ordered around by Nog is ridiculous.

The other solution is to have him answered "Yes" when asked "Do your parents know each other". If no, you are officer material (only bastards need apply), if yes, you're stuck in the ranks (From various Drill Sergeant expressions in the movies ).

Stofsk wrote:The problem with O'Brien, and TNG era Star Trek, is that they literally didn't know what a military organisation has as ranks. The stupid writers just thought everyone goes to the Academy, and no-one enlists. O'Brien himself was originally a Lieutenant. Then sometime during the show he became a "Chief" but I think his rank pips never changed. Then in DS9 it seemed the same thing, he was still a "Chief" but it wasn't clear he was a Noncom. Not until season 4 in that Jem'Hadar episode where a enemy soldier refers to him as a Noncom and he replies affirmatively.

Now if you can sort out that mess you can get a whole BOX of cookies. As it stands, I think the writers just fucked up and didn't cover their arses.

He is a noncom. During the DS9 epsiode where Sisko and Bashir go back to the 21st century, O'Brien talks about how he is glad that he never went to the academy.

All Hail Chief O'Brien!

The only Enlisted Man in Starfleet!

The only man capable of being ordered around by Wesley Crusher and Nog!

I bet he'd kill his recruiter if he'd have known when he was a chief he'd be taking orders from a Ferengi Cadet...

Does anyone remember the medtech from "The Drumhead?" He was only a Crewman(probably SF verison of a Seaman). Also, Worf's adopted father was probably enlisted. He insisted Geordi refer to him as "Chief" because " he worked for a living." A retort sometimes used by NCOs when asked the difference between an officer and an NCO,

Hey, cut O'Brien some slack, how many people have survived being a nameless red shirt and a nameless security guard, to then gain a name and become a real boy-er character.

paladin wrote:Does anyone remember the medtech from "The Drumhead?" He was only a Crewman(probably SF verison of a Seaman). Also, Worf's adopted father was probably enlisted. He insisted Geordi refer to him as "Chief" because " he worked for a living." A retort sometimes used by NCOs when asked the difference between an officer and an NCO,

The Defiant's engineering staff are enlisted, Ref "Starship Down".

The Kernel wrote:He is a noncom. During the DS9 epsiode where Sisko and Bashir go back to the 21st century, O'Brien talks about how he is glad that he never went to the academy.

This is exactly what I'm talking about - at one point he's a liutenant and an officer, at another point he's an enlisted man and has ALWAYS been an enlisted man.

Besides, I thought he said he HAD gone to the Academy?

Chalk it up to people never bothering to keep things straight on the rank issue. At least in the ST movie era they bothered to create all the ranks and divisions. But no, they figured everyone in TNG would be a bloody officer.

They should never have retired the old uniform and rank divisions from the movie era.

Hey, cut O'Brien some slack, how many people have survived being a nameless red shirt and a nameless security guard, to then gain a name and become a real boy-er character.

Good point

O'Brien's very first appearance was as a no-name Ensign in the Command division manning the battle bridge in "Encounter at Farpoint". "All Good Things" showed a flashback of O'Brien in the same red costume and Picard confirmed this was actually O'Brien and not some other guy who looks exactly like Colm Meaney. Later on he was shown in a gold shirt with Lieutenant pips. And DS9 established that he was an enlisted man. Aaaagh! The best thing to do in O'Brien's case is to ignore the pips as meaningless and rationalize his switch from Command to Engineering as some sort of Starfleet red tape thing. And rank pips ARE meaningless. Tuvok was a lieutenant for the entire 1st season of Voyager but wore Lt. Com. pips. Then he stopped wearing them in Season 2 and wore the appropriate 1st Lieutenant pips (maybe Janeway finally noticed?). Then he got promoted to Lt. Com. in the 3rd season and put the extra pip back on. So pips are fucked up and we shouldn't determine what the rank of some character is solely with their pips if dialogue establishes their rank to be different.

Thats the O'Brian's curse he's the one who get screwed every time,like in the DS9 episode where he had a 20 year jail time memory implanted as punishment.

Or the TNG episode where he, Data and Troi got possessed by incorporeal alien convicts. Or the DS9 episode where he got infected by a lethal bioweapon. Or the DS9 episode where he was replaced by a duplicate in the Gamma Quadrant. Or the DS9 episode where he got unstuck in time, saw himself die twice and then actually died and got replaced by his alternate future self. Or the episode where Keiko was possessed by a Pah Wraith. Or the episode where Molly fell through a time portal and came back completely feral. The only character who suffered anywhere near as much as poor O'Brien was Harry Kim.

Maybe O'Brien fucked up big time ofscreen in TNG and was stripped of rank, like Janeway did to the five officers of the Equinox.

Enola Straight wrote:Maybe O'Brien fucked up big time ofscreen in TNG and was stripped of rank, like Janeway did to the five officers of the Equinox.

You'd figure there'd have been an explanation if they did. Tom Paris got dropped in rank at least once in Voyager, and they did an episode with the reasons for it. Hell, they even had an episode for Counselor Troi getting promoted. They normally don't demote or promote characters off screen without at least mentioning why it happened.

Stofsk wrote:The problem with O'Brien, and TNG era Star Trek, is that they literally didn't know what a military organisation has as ranks. The stupid writers just thought everyone goes to the Academy, and no-one enlists.

Dude, are you serious? I spent maybe three minutes checking an encyclopedia to make sure I got ranks right for my nation's military in the STGOD. You're saying I put more work into my nation right there than the TNG writers put into the Federation for the entire show?!?

Stofsk wrote:The problem with O'Brien, and TNG era Star Trek, is that they literally didn't know what a military organisation has as ranks. The stupid writers just thought everyone goes to the Academy, and no-one enlists. O'Brien himself was originally a Lieutenant. Then sometime during the show he became a "Chief" but I think his rank pips never changed. Then in DS9 it seemed the same thing, he was still a "Chief" but it wasn't clear he was a Noncom. Not until season 4 in that Jem'Hadar episode where a enemy soldier refers to him as a Noncom and he replies affirmatively.

Now if you can sort out that mess you can get a whole BOX of cookies. As it stands, I think the writers just fucked up and didn't cover their arses.

Not every writer was so ignorant; TNG The Drumhead acknowledges that there are "crewmen" who never went to the Academy.

You have a point, but that doesn't change the fact the writers were schizophrenic when it came to O'Brien and his rank.

Eh... pardon my ignorance;
but Starfleet Lt.(JG) insignia, that's one full metalic-color pip + one pip with a dark center, right?
(making a Lt. 2 full pips)

hvb wrote:Eh... pardon my ignorance;
but Starfleet Lt.(JG) insignia, that's one full metalic-color pip + one pip with a dark center, right?
(making a Lt. 2 full pips)

Indeed, that is correct.