StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Right, in one of the TOS episodes I know an All Vulcan crewed ship was mentioned, but does this practice still stand, and if so why does it remain in the days of the good persecution and racism free (pshah!) Federation?

Crews could conceivably work better when there are large cultural and intellectual differences between species.

Howedar wrote:Crews could conceivably work better when there are large cultural and intellectual differences between species.

Yeah works also with the typical buddy movies (black cop/white cop)

Straha: The practice likely came about from the Federation being highly separated, politically. Each world would field its own troops, possibly training them locally, and stationing them locally. Much easier to put local people in local defense positions. Starfleet is also halfway between Star Police and Star Military, and most police officers in the a country are, well, locals.

There was an all-Vulcan ship in DS9, too. They kicked DS9's crew's asses in baseball.

Drooling Iguana wrote:There was an all-Vulcan ship in DS9, too. They kicked DS9's crew's asses in baseball.

Buts thats all right the DS9 people had the "its taking prt that counts" schtik going on. (Strange the winners never say that...)

Straha wrote:Right, in one of the TOS episodes I know an All Vulcan crewed ship was mentioned, but does this practice still stand, and if so why does it remain in the days of the good persecution and racism free (pshah!) Federation?

We know that Vulcans can find humans very irritating to work with on a daily basis, so it would stand to reason that Vulcans would prefer working in an environment free of such irritations.

I believe it may have been an idea of the writers that Vulcan was relatively new to the Federation, perhaps its first non-Earth member, and that Spock was an exchange officer at the beginning while the UFP handed a commissioned starship —one of a relatively new class of vessel— over to them to facilitate the integration of Vulcans into the Starfleet organisational structure. Remember that season one makes it quite plain that it was the United Earth Space Probe Agency which fielded Starfleet and that the Federation seemed largely if not almost exclusively to consist of Earth and her colony worlds.

Not quite, unfortunately.

Sarak, Spock's father, had been the Vulcan Ambassador for years before Spock's birth. Before that, Sarak worked with the prior ambassoder as cultural attache, and got the reputation of being the one to ask when confused about Terran culture, rituals, or idioisms.
(Source: Novel "I, Spock")
So the Vulcans have been allies with the Federation for years.

IIRC, in TOS a Vulcan ship was destroyed, and Spock mentioned it was a research vessel only, unlike the Enterprise. Perhaps that's one reason it was Vulcan only.

LadyTevar wrote: IIRC, in TOS a Vulcan ship was destroyed, and Spock mentioned it was a research vessel only, unlike the Enterprise. Perhaps that's one reason it was Vulcan only.

No, it was the Intrepid, a Constitution-class starship identical to the Enterprise from the episode The Immunity Syndrome.

I think that an all Vulcan crew was probably requested by the Vulcans and they got it as a major partner in Starfleet and the Federation. The Vulcans were quite private in the TOS days (remember, no one had documented the Vulcan Pon'Far condition despite studying Vulcans for over a century) and they probably figured that a segregated starship made the most sense.

LadyTevar wrote:Sarak, Spock's father, had been the Vulcan Ambassador for years before Spock's birth. Before that, Sarak worked with the prior ambassoder as cultural attache, and got the reputation of being the one to ask when confused about Terran culture, rituals, or idioisms.
(Source: Novel "I, Spock")
So the Vulcans have been allies with the Federation for years.

Unfortunately, novels aren't canon. Even the good ones.

Could it be possible that Starfleet is similar to NATO, in that each member state has it's own navy and crew but they all belong in the same organisation? That way you can have two Connies with a Vulcan crew on one side and a human crew on the other side; and Spock as an exchange officer, or something.

Perhaps the analogy doesn't fit entirely, but given the Cold War motif with the Klingons (Russians) and Romulans (Red China) wouldn't it make a bit of sense?

Vulcan is determinedly pacifist as a planet, but produces some of the best field researchers in the Federation on a consistent basis and has a logical interest in science. This is why the Vulcan Science Academy trains and fields its own fleet of research vessels, rather than work on board armed Starfleet ships.

Vulcan science ships customarily carry nothing that is strictly an offensive weapon, except in the alternative universe explored in "Mirror, Mirror." (I.e., established canon) in which Vulcans have few qualms about engaging in violence to insure their survival.

Except the USS Intrepid is a Federation CA and is armed, and was crewed entirely by Vulcans. A precedent is established, and there's no reason to believe the Intrepid was a freak occurance. Given we see a Vulcan crewed ship a century later in DS9, I'd say it's a long standing tradition.

And Vulcan's aren't as pacifistic as you'd think. In "Devil in the Dark" Spock urges Kirk to kill the Horta, AFTER suggesting it be captured for study - because Kirk's life was at risk. In "The Galileo 7" Spock uses a non-violent solution initially to frighten the natives, and as a result several of his crew get killed. In "Errand of Mercy" Kirk questions his First Officer and his ability to kill if necessary; Spock acknowledges that he is clear on his duties.

And let's not forget "Amok Time" where we see the koon-ut-kalifee. Yeah, Vulcans are fucking completely pacifistic...

They don't believe in mindless violence, I'll grant you that. Controlled violence, on the other hand, is something else.

It would seem all 'Starfleet' ships are simply Earth's Naval force, because throughout TNG/DS9 we see that other federation members do indeed still have their own vessels... Yet it seems Starfleet vessels are crewed by all federation members (yet still predominantly human) yet vulcan vessels etc etc are only crewed by their native peoples. It's bollocks.

Jon wrote:It would seem all 'Starfleet' ships are simply Earth's Naval force, because throughout TNG/DS9 we see that other federation members do indeed still have their own vessels... Yet it seems Starfleet vessels are crewed by all federation members (yet still predominantly human) yet vulcan vessels etc etc are only crewed by their native peoples. It's bollocks.

'Starfleet' equals the federation's military wing, NOT solely Earth's. The fact a Constitution class Heavy Cruiser was crewed entirely by Vulcans should attest to that.

Furthermore, why is it bollocks for a ship to be crewed by it's native species or race? Would you want Germans to fully crew a British Destroyer? Would you expect the French to allow one of their ships to be crewed entirely by Brits? The EU is close to the Federation model, but Starfleet IMO is close to NATO in it's inspiration, though a lot more close-knit.

I understand that, but then are we saying that every Federation member state, but Earth has a military? Or Earth has Starfleet and other federation members are permitted to join it... whilst crewing their own ships with their own race.

Stofsk wrote:Except the USS Intrepid is a Federation CA and is armed, and was crewed entirely by Vulcans. A precedent is established, and there's no reason to believe the Intrepid was a freak occurance. Given we see a Vulcan crewed ship a century later in DS9, I'd say it's a long standing tradition.

And Vulcan's aren't as pacifistic as you'd think. In "Devil in the Dark" Spock urges Kirk to kill the Horta, AFTER suggesting it be captured for study - because Kirk's life was at risk. In "The Galileo 7" Spock uses a non-violent solution initially to frighten the natives, and as a result several of his crew get killed. In "Errand of Mercy" Kirk questions his First Officer and his ability to kill if necessary; Spock acknowledges that he is clear on his duties.

And let's not forget "Amok Time" where we see the koon-ut-kalifee. Yeah, Vulcans are fucking completely pacifistic...

They don't believe in mindless violence, I'll grant you that. Controlled violence, on the other hand, is something else.

Spock's willingness to perform controlled necessary violence, seen in Errand of Mercy, is related to his performance in the other episodes. It's also related to his being on the outs with his dad and being the only Vulcan in Starfleet at the time. As far as koon-ut-kalifee... well, you have a point there. I'm not as clear on the Intrepid. Armed Vulcan science vessel? What? Ok, what episode was that one in? I need to do some remedial work...

It's secret, traditionalist, ritualistic violence, but Vulcans are special that way when it comes to mating rituals.

Vulcan's aren't pafacist. Hello? Mr Tuvok: Cheif tactical officer?

Crazedwraith wrote:Vulcan's aren't pafacist. Hello? Mr Tuvok: Cheif tactical officer?

Let's not forget Siconna, the Maquis terrorist in DS9:"The Maquis, part I and II" or the hundred year war between Vulcan and Romulus that was mentioned by Q when he accused Quinn of starting it in VOY:"Deathwish" and then there are the Vulcan cruisers seen in Enterpise.

tjhairball wrote:I'm not as clear on the Intrepid. Armed Vulcan science vessel? What? Ok, what episode was that one in? I need to do some remedial work...

"The Immunity Syndrome" season 2. It was destroyed with all hands, and it was crewed entirely by Vulcans. Spock 'felt' them die (chalk it up to limited psionics).

The USS Intrepid is referred to previously in "Court Martial" all the way back in season 1, where it was orbiting Starbase 11 and put in for repairs (though indications suggest it was minor damage as Commodore Stone gave the Enterprise top priority). It's a Constitution class CA, and as such is armed to the teeth.

It's secret, traditionalist, ritualistic violence, but Vulcans are special that way when it comes to mating rituals.

Spock's mating rituals notwithstanding, there's also the fact Tuvok is Voyager's Chief Tactical Officer and is skilled in dozens of martial arts. He's hurt a lot of people, and probably killed too.

There was a Vulcan in command of the USS Saratoga when it made it's attack run on the Borg Cube at Wolf 359. There was the Vulcan captain in DS9 in command of a ship during wartime. If Vulcans were truly pacifistic why would they readily agree to command starships during times of crisis or battle?

Stofsk wrote:

tjhairball wrote:I'm not as clear on the Intrepid. Armed Vulcan science vessel? What? Ok, what episode was that one in? I need to do some remedial work...

"The Immunity Syndrome" season 2. It was destroyed with all hands, and it was crewed entirely by Vulcans. Spock 'felt' them die (chalk it up to limited psionics).

The USS Intrepid is referred to previously in "Court Martial" all the way back in season 1, where it was orbiting Starbase 11 and put in for repairs (though indications suggest it was minor damage as Commodore Stone gave the Enterprise top priority). It's a Constitution class CA, and as such is armed to the teeth.

It's secret, traditionalist, ritualistic violence, but Vulcans are special that way when it comes to mating rituals.

Spock's mating rituals notwithstanding, there's also the fact Tuvok is Voyager's Chief Tactical Officer and is skilled in dozens of martial arts. He's hurt a lot of people, and probably killed too.

There was a Vulcan in command of the USS Saratoga when it made it's attack run on the Borg Cube at Wolf 359. There was the Vulcan captain in DS9 in command of a ship during wartime. If Vulcans were truly pacifistic why would they readily agree to command starships during times of crisis or battle?

Vulcans are pragmatic. While they prefer pacifism, if a situation calls for violence they feel that they are better equipped to control the situation to mitigate the loss of life and damage.

Stofsk wrote:

tjhairball wrote:I'm not as clear on the Intrepid. Armed Vulcan science vessel? What? Ok, what episode was that one in? I need to do some remedial work...

"The Immunity Syndrome" season 2. It was destroyed with all hands, and it was crewed entirely by Vulcans. Spock 'felt' them die (chalk it up to limited psionics).

The USS Intrepid is referred to previously in "Court Martial" all the way back in season 1, where it was orbiting Starbase 11 and put in for repairs (though indications suggest it was minor damage as Commodore Stone gave the Enterprise top priority). It's a Constitution class CA, and as such is armed to the teeth.

It's secret, traditionalist, ritualistic violence, but Vulcans are special that way when it comes to mating rituals.

Spock's mating rituals notwithstanding, there's also the fact Tuvok is Voyager's Chief Tactical Officer and is skilled in dozens of martial arts. He's hurt a lot of people, and probably killed too.

There was a Vulcan in command of the USS Saratoga when it made it's attack run on the Borg Cube at Wolf 359. There was the Vulcan captain in DS9 in command of a ship during wartime. If Vulcans were truly pacifistic why would they readily agree to command starships during times of crisis or battle?

Because it's Logical.
The Vulcans went through a period where they were warlike and nearly destroyed themselves. However, they believe Sarek (?) saved them by preaching Logic and the IDIC principle. Thus, while the Vulcans *can* be violent, they prefer to use Logic to find a peaceful solution.
(Source: TOS, the one that had President Lincoln and Sarek(?) joining forces with Kirk and Spock in a fight to the Death.)

tjhairball wrote:Vulcan is determinedly pacifist as a planet, but produces some of the best field researchers in the Federation on a consistent basis and has a logical interest in science. This is why the Vulcan Science Academy trains and fields its own fleet of research vessels, rather than work on board armed Starfleet ships.

Vulcan science ships customarily carry nothing that is strictly an offensive weapon, except in the alternative universe explored in "Mirror, Mirror." (I.e., established canon) in which Vulcans have few qualms about engaging in violence to insure their survival.

There's no canon proof of Vulcan having a fleet of unarmed science vessels. The Intrepid was an armed starship, and the ship seen in DS9 was back from combat operations.

In that horrible DS9 episode the Vulcans were shown to be quite rascist, which could explain segregated ships.

LadyTevar wrote: Because it's Logical.
The Vulcans went through a period where they were warlike and nearly destroyed themselves. However, they believe Sarek (?) saved them by preaching Logic and the IDIC principle. Thus, while the Vulcans *can* be violent, they prefer to use Logic to find a peaceful solution.
(Source: TOS, the one that had President Lincoln and Sarek(?) joining forces with Kirk and Spock in a fight to the Death.)

Bullshit. Surak (the Vulcan leader from "The Savage Curtain") is not said to hold the majority opinion on Vulcan in present times. Spock respects his ideals and doesn't like to fight, but he has had to take action which has killed people before. Hell, in "The Man Trap" he was shouting at McCoy over and over to kill the salt-eating creature before it hurt the captain.

And none of that IDIC shit is canon anyways unless they mentioned something about it in Enterprise.