General Order 12?

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-06-09 07:11am

Flipping channels couple days ago and I hit TOS Trek. It where two planets have completly computerized their war. Fake strikes, fake damage, real deaths as computer designated people file into sudice booths.

Kirk and Spock have been kidnapped by one of the planets and Kirk orders "General Order 12," I think it was to Scotty. Scotty then preceeds to threathen to bombard the planet if his captain and exec are not returned. Am I remembering this right?

Now the offical questions. If this is regualtion for the kidnapping of federation crew (give them back or we break out the nukes). Why is by the time next generation rolls around we see Picard groveling to any thrid rate tin pot wanna be that grabs federation personnal? Even when informed that said personnal will be put to death?

How many brain cells did Federation Command have to lose for this?

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-06-09 07:58am

Picard never grovelled whenever a member of his crew had been kidnapped. He usually negotiated with them - which is fair enough, after all. And Picard wasn't above simply rescuing his crew and leaving, as he did for Wesley Crusher in the episode "Justice."

In any case, the two eras are different in their styles and approaches. There could still be a General Order 12 in the TNG era, but meh.

Also remember, that in "A Taste of Armageddon" Kirk and the Enterprise were travelling to a planetary system where a previous starfleet expedition, the USS Valiant, had been lost. In other words, unlike a 'third rate wannabe dictator' which Picard had to deal with, and who couldn't threaten the E-D by implication, Kirk and his ship were going into a system which had been at war for generations, where another starfleet vessel was lost; possibly due to direct enemy attack (they didn't know at the time).

So you've got two different scenarios:

1) Picard with a GCS, which is in orbit over a planet that has taken Federation citizens hostage, yet don't possess the means to directly threaten the E-D. Picard was rarely out of reach from Starfleet Command, where long-range communications may take at most a couple of hours; meaning if he has trouble with his orders he can get confirmation quickly, as well as advice.

And...

2) Kirk in a Connie, which is in a system that has been at war for centuries, where a previous Starfleet ship was last reported to be in - presumed lost. Not only that, but Eminiar could fire upon the Enterprise while it was in orbit. Note also that Kirk has a great deal of discretionary powers, due to the delays in subspace communications (where you might have to wait a couple of weeks to get a reply back).

Would General Order 12 be justified in the former case, where the ship isn't directly threatened? It certainly was in the latter case.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-06-09 10:09am

Picard: "You've kidnapped some of our crewmembers. Please give them back. You won't? Okay, we'll negotiate till your eyeballs pop out and you die of boredom."

Kirk: "You've kidnapped some of our crewmembers? Give them back NOW, or we'll wipe out everyone on your planet."

Kirk would have made a good imperial- Picard was a wuss

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-06-09 10:15am

Picard would have made an excellent Imperial as well. Just read a certain well-known fanfic and you'll agree...

Enola Straight · Post by **Enola Straight** » 2004-06-09 11:36am

I always thought that the order...General order 24 IIRC... was only a bluff.

Kirk says its a BDZ, but probably was something innocuous like securing non-essential personell and materiel during a crisis situation.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-06-09 12:06pm

Enola Straight wrote:I always thought that the order...General order 24 IIRC... was only a bluff.

Why? Scotty broke communication directly after being given the order, then the Enterprise moves out of range of Eminiar's ground batteries, then Scotty calls in and says:

A Taste of Armageddon wrote:Scotty (after receiving the General Order 24 from Kirk): This is the commander of the U.S.S. Enterprise. All cities and installations on Eminiar 7 have been located, identified, and fed into our fire control system. In 1 hour and 45 minutes, the entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed. You have that long to surrender your hostages.

Bold: 'inhabited surface' refers to cities and population centres, and presumably industrial and ground defence installations. They are expected to be destroyed; considering the targets in question the Enterprise would surely be able to bomb the Eminiarans back to the stone age, or worse. Now, this ISN'T a BDZ - meaning the *entire* surface will be slagged. Scotty makes care to mention the targets - "cities and installations" - then proceeds to say the "inhabited surface" will be destroyed. He was probably exaggerating a little to scare the Eminiarans into compliance, although his statement holds a degree of truth.

Now consider:

A Taste of Armageddon wrote:(Kirk has retaken the initiative, and has a chance to communicate with the Enterprise)

Scotty: Captain, are you allright?

Kirk: Everything's secure here. Maintain position. If everything goes to plan, you can beam us up in 10 minutes. If you don't hear from us, carry out general order 24 on schedule.

Scotty: Aye, aye, Captain.

A phaser and photon torpedo bombardment targeting 'cities and installations' on the surface will devastate Eminiar 7. Scotty acknowledges on the order, has the firing computer primed and ready, and is given a second confirmation by Kirk should communication be severed a possible final time.

It was no bluff. A bit of exaggeration, surely, but no bluff.

Kirk says its a BDZ, but probably was something innocuous like securing non-essential personell and materiel during a crisis situation.

Negative; the quotes I've provided show exactly what a General Order 24 is and what it entails. It is NOT a BDZ. It IS an order for planetary bombardment; so they're *similar* but the level of destruction is of course exceeded by the BDZ.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-06-09 03:17pm

Stofsk wrote:Picard would have made an excellent Imperial as well. Just read a certain well-known fanfic and you'll agree...

He still didn't have the Imperial mentality...even with an Eclipse class SSD at his command, I doubt Picard could ever order the destruction of a planet (with the exception of Borg planets, of course!).

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-06-09 03:54pm

Praxis wrote:Picard: "You've kidnapped some of our crewmembers. Please give them back. You won't? Okay, we'll negotiate till your eyeballs pop out and you die of boredom."

Kirk: "You've kidnapped some of our crewmembers? Give them back NOW, or we'll wipe out everyone on your planet."

Kirk would have made a good imperial- Picard was a wuss

You know, force isn't always the best approach.

The Third Man · Post by **The Third Man** » 2004-06-09 04:02pm

The dialogue in the final scene of the episode, when they are all safely back on the bridge and holding the usual informal debrief, tends to indicate that it was no bluff. I don't have an exact script to hand, but it's something along the lines of "that was a terrible risk to take", not, as you would expect in the case of a bluff, anything like "My, what a clever bluff that was Jim"

Ma Deuce · Post by **Ma Deuce** » 2004-06-09 04:47pm

You know, force isn't always the best approach.

No, but Praxis' statement stands true because force (or more accurately the threat of force) was the approach favored by Imperials.

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2004-06-09 09:06pm

Well, I wouldn't be so quick to presume general order 24 wasn't a bluff. I mean, that could be all part of the bluff, with further commando operations or other military action should that fail. Until we see "general order 24" actually carried out there would be some degree of doubt.

After all, destroying all the population centres doesn't seem to fit in with Federation ideals, even of Kirk's time. Hell, thats like the U.S. threatening to nuke the entire middle east because of a busload of hostages being kidnapped. There would be countless innocent civilian casualties. IT is doubtful such an order would be such standard practice as to have a particular order for it.

Enola Straight · Post by **Enola Straight** » 2004-06-09 11:37pm

Exactly.

This is why I thought that it was the unspoken, accepted understanding amongst those in-the-know...aka command officers of starfleet...to threaten the enemy force with...

DUM DUM DADUMMM!!!

GENERAL ORDER #24
gasp!

And all the while its just Feddies shittin' the baddies.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-06-10 01:09am

The "risk" that they were referring to was the risk that Eminiar and Vendicar would not negotiate, that instead they would go through with a real attack on each other.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-06-10 01:13am

Uraniun235 wrote:
Praxis wrote:Picard: "You've kidnapped some of our crewmembers. Please give them back. You won't? Okay, we'll negotiate till your eyeballs pop out and you die of boredom."

Kirk: "You've kidnapped some of our crewmembers? Give them back NOW, or we'll wipe out everyone on your planet."

Kirk would have made a good imperial- Picard was a wuss
You know, force isn't always the best approach.

Indeed. If force was used the captors might kill the hostages. Hostage situations require carefully planning and subtle approach rather than brute force.

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2004-06-10 04:02am

Force is the only approach, since kidnapping is a form of aggression. To negotiate under those circumstances is to legitimize kidnapping as a means of accomplishing goals. Nobody ever has the right to take what is not theirs in order to intimidate others. No group should ever negotiate under duress. The kidnappers should get exactly one chance to let go of the hostages, then the hostages will be rescued, and the kidnappers will be hunted and killed without mercy. If they are returned in any state but the one in which they were taken, the kidnappers get it. If any government is involved in any way in aiding or abetting the kidnapping, it's automatic war until the leaders of that government die along with whatever organization did the kidnapping.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-06-10 04:17am

Hey, so I guess in 1979, Jimmy Carter should have ordered an invasion of Iran when they stormed the embassy and held those people hostage. That sure would have put things right and saved a lot of lives.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-06-10 04:17am

For all those who still think GO24 is a bluff: The system which holds Eminiar 7 and Vendicar was the last reported position of the USS Valiant, who was sent there by an expedition. They were lost, presumed destroyed, until Kirk found out what happened to them.

Not only this, but the Enterprise came under attack by Eminiar 7. They were fucking hostile, and effectively declared war on the Federation by firing on the Enterprise, and destroying the Valiant all those decades ago.

I'm sorry, but Kirk knew this and gave the order. And he's fucking RIGHT FOR DOING SO. Note he used it as a negotiation tool, so there was an element of gunboat diplomacy involved; nevertheless, my 2 quotes above demonstrates that Scotty was prepared to do it, and Kirk gave a second confirmation of the order. It wasn't a bluff, and protestations of 'it isn't the Federation way' are meaningless - Eminiar 7 wasn't some backwater Tyree's planet where the natives couldn't throw shit up at orbiting Klingon or Federation warships; it was a sophisticated pre-warp civilisation that possessed ground batteries capable of reaching a certain orbital distance.

They had already destroyed the USS Valiant, and her crew, which is ALREADY an act of war.

They held Kirk and his party hostage, and opened fire on the USS Enterprise, making another act of war.

Kirk canceling the order showed remarkable restraint in my opinion, and furthermore you don't see Scotty griping with the order either.

[EDIT] Cut some exclamation marks that made my original post seem as though it were written by hyperactive typewriter monkeys. The monkey situation has been brought under control.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-06-10 04:21am

Of course not; Scotty, in the same episode, said the best diplomat he knew was a fully armed phaser bank.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-06-10 05:32am

Is there any idea if it is still in effect in Next Generation?

From what I've seen, I'd have to say no but I've been wrong before (just look at the thread subject title).

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-06-10 11:04am

frigidmagi wrote:Is there any idea if it is still in effect in Next Generation?

From what I've seen, I'd have to say no but I've been wrong before (just look at the thread subject title).

I would tentatively say it's still in effect, because there doesn't seem reason to change it and I can't think of any proof that it was stricken from the records. I can't for the life of me remember when the Enterprise-D came under attack from a surface target, and the -D retaliating in kind. Never would be my guess.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-06-10 12:02pm

However Picard as almost never threatened to resort to force in these kinds of situations. What happened when Yar was kidnapped, etc?

While there are differences you think if General Order 24 was still on the books that it would show in the conduct of the officers and crew. Of course it would be widely ignored by Star-we're not a military-fleet at the time of Next Generation. After the Domination War it might be back into effect, maybe...

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2004-06-10 12:28pm

Scotty should have targetted the military bases and interplanetary communications facilities of Eminiar, then told their leaders to hand over Kirk and Spock immediately, or the planet's military will be demolished and its link to Vendikar will be severed. If they weren't returned, lock a transporter on them and beam them out, then open fire and leave at full speed, leaving Eminiar to the mess it made. As for the ambassador on the Enterprise, his mission ended when they took hostages; why open diplomatic relations with kidnappers? If they return them, they could chalk it up to a misunderstanding, and send down the ambassador.

As for the more general question of how to address kidnapping and ransom (for that is all we are talking about), I don't consider negotiation to be the proper response to kidnapping people or any other act of terrorism. To negotiate while threatened really does reward making threats, and that can't be allowed. Obviously, I consider a military response to be the correct one, because kidnapping and ransom are acts of aggression. That such an act is only committed against a few makes it no less wrong. I can't say much for other countries, but I can say this attitude is fitting for the US, because the individual is supposed to matter here. Whether one person or a million are threatened, whether it's the President or a bum, it makes no difference. As for the argument that such a response can lead to the hostages' being killed, the initial goal of a military response should be recovering the hostages. If they are killed before a rescue can happen, then the kidnappers and whatever organization they are part of, die.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-06-10 12:30pm

Let's not turn this into a thread that would belong in News and Politics okay?

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-06-10 02:09pm

CDiehl wrote:Scotty should have targetted the military bases and interplanetary communications facilities of Eminiar, then told their leaders to hand over Kirk and Spock immediately, or the planet's military will be demolished and its link to Vendikar will be severed.

*ahem* That's what Scotty did, and what eventually happened.

If they weren't returned, lock a transporter on them and beam them out, then open fire and leave at full speed, leaving Eminiar to the mess it made.

I suppose there was some difficulty in locating Kirk and his landing party for the transporters. I believe in TOS you had to signal the starship in orbit to organise beaming, and they could lock onto your comm-signal and use that to bring you up. If you remember, the landing party's communicators had been confiscated.

As for the ambassador on the Enterprise, his mission ended when they took hostages; why open diplomatic relations with kidnappers? If they return them, they could chalk it up to a misunderstanding, and send down the ambassador.

Yeah - but then Ambassador Fox had to go and beam himself down...

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-06-11 12:12am

You didn't have to - I'm pretty sure there was at least one episode where they managed to pick up people without the use of the communicator. But it sure helps.