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In TNG "The Battle", when Picard is in command of the Stargazer, and re-living the battle against the Ferengi, Data comes up with a convoluted plan to defeat the Picard Manoeuvre by some technobabble means which I don't quite remember.

However, was there really any need for it? Since the manoeuvre involved warping closer to the E-D and attacking it, couldn't the E-D have just grabbed whichever one was nearest to it?

You could rationalise the manoeuvre working on the Ferengi because they weren't familiar with it, and could have panicked in the heat of the situation, but with the crew of the E-D familiar with the tactic (which was even a required reading at Starfleet Academy, IIRC), wouldn't they have simply realised that the closest Stargazer would be the correct version?

DaveJB wrote:In TNG "The Battle", when Picard is in command of the Stargazer, and re-living the battle against the Ferengi, Data comes up with a convoluted plan to defeat the Picard Manoeuvre by some technobabble means which I don't quite remember.
However, was there really any need for it? Since the manoeuvre involved warping closer to the E-D and attacking it, couldn't the E-D have just grabbed whichever one was nearest to it?
You could rationalise the manoeuvre working on the Ferengi because they weren't familiar with it, and could have panicked in the heat of the situation, but with the crew of the E-D familiar with the tactic (which was even a required reading at Starfleet Academy, IIRC), wouldn't they have simply realised that the closest Stargazer would be the correct version?

Actually, that manouvre shouldn't work on anybody with FTL sensors anyway (and IIRC that was stated in the actual episode), so it ought to have been useless against he E-D anyway.
NTM that Picard was taking up a decades-old near-derelict hulk against the Federation flagship, which should have made it pointless even if Riker fell for it (remember his performance in 'Generations'...)

I thought the E-D's FTL sensors were long-range, but had too low resolution for combat situations?

Batman wrote:Actually, that manouvre shouldn't work on anybody with FTL sensors anyway (and IIRC that was stated in the actual episode), so it ought to have been useless against he E-D anyway.
NTM that Picard was taking up a decades-old near-derelict hulk against the Federation flagship, which should have made it pointless even if Riker fell for it (remember his performance in 'Generations'...)

The problem with the premise is that if it doesn't work on ships with FTL sensors, it shouldn't have worked on the Ferengi.

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Batman wrote:Actually, that manouvre shouldn't work on anybody with FTL sensors anyway (and IIRC that was stated in the actual episode), so it ought to have been useless against he E-D anyway.
NTM that Picard was taking up a decades-old near-derelict hulk against the Federation flagship, which should have made it pointless even if Riker fell for it (remember his performance in 'Generations'...)

The problem with the premise is that if it doesn't work on ships with FTL sensors, it shouldn't have worked on the Ferengi.

I'm reasonaby certain they stated in that very episode that it worked on the Ferengi because they didn't HAVE FTL sensors (or at the very least none suitable for that situation)
Nevertheless, since it DID work, that means that
a)the Ferengi didn't have FTL sensors,
b) didn't have SUITABLE FTL sensors, or
c) were abysmally stupid.

And before you bring up the E-D, we already KNOW Riker's abysmally stupid.

Batman wrote:I'm reasonaby certain they stated in that very episode that it worked on the Ferengi because they didn't HAVE FTL sensors (or at the very least none suitable for that situation)
Nevertheless, since it DID work, that means that
a)the Ferengi didn't have FTL sensors,
b) didn't have SUITABLE FTL sensors, or
c) were abysmally stupid.

And before you bring up the E-D, we already KNOW Riker's abysmally stupid.

They would have to have FTL sensors. How could they navigate when at warp if they didn't?

Data specifically stated in the episode that there was no known defense against the Picard Maneuver. That seems to indicate that, FTL sensors or no, the maneuver was effective.

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Batman wrote:I'm reasonaby certain they stated in that very episode that it worked on the Ferengi because they didn't HAVE FTL sensors (or at the very least none suitable for that situation)
Nevertheless, since it DID work, that means that
a)the Ferengi didn't have FTL sensors,
b) didn't have SUITABLE FTL sensors, or
c) were abysmally stupid.
And before you bring up the E-D, we already KNOW Riker's abysmally stupid.

They would have to have FTL sensors. How could they navigate when at warp if they didn't?

Technically, you can navigate FTL with no sensors whatsoever, assuming your charts are accurate enough.
However, what I was getting at was that either
a) the Ferengi didn't have FTL sensors, period (which is admittedly unlikely), or
b) the ones they have have sucky resolution and/or response times (and yes, that would suffice for FTL nav but not tactical combat)

It could be that at point blank range, a ship accelerating and decelerating to warp dead at you simply appears as a massive blot of subspace noise, with too little time to asertain distance and vectors.

Of course this doesn't work when you consider that the E-D's computer was able to quite easily plot on the viewscreen the ship, show its progression through warp towards the E-D, then showing it emerging directly in front of the E-D. So in complete contrast to Data's comments, the E-D's sensor/computer package was quite able to track the Stargazer. It might simply be that the E-D was the very first starship to have this ability, untested to Data was being very literal when he said 'There is no known defence'.

Of course we still ignore the fact that Riker didn't simply use the prefix code of the Stargazer to shut down her shields and beam Picard off. Or simply fire a single phaser blast to disable her shield grid. I mean given that the Stargazer was half crippled from its earlier fight, had no crew/damage control team on board, it should have been easy for Riker to simply fry its shield generators with a single shot given how absurdly one sided the firepower equation was...

But that would violate Riker's long standing battle strategy of not firing at things.

Gil Hamilton wrote:But that would violate Riker's long standing battle strategy of not firing at things.

Heh, you know that should be in a Special eddition of Insurection.

La Forge
"I wouldn't be surprised if histroy rememebrs this as the Riker manouver"

Riker.
"Because its such a cunning strategy?"

La Forge:
"No, because you're taking an absurdly risky strategy when you outgun the enemy two to one and refuse to simply turn around and blast them"

Riker:
"....just suck up the damn gas Geordi..."

DaveJB wrote:I thought the E-D's FTL sensors were long-range, but had too low resolution for combat situations?

In one Voyger episode Voyger was able display the real time image of a planet several light years away. So Federation FTL sensors do seem to have good resolution.

The only reason the vaunted "Picard Manoeuver" worked the first time was because it came as a complete surprise to the Ferengi; especially as they thought they were dealing with a helpless ship before them. The element of surprise didn't exist this time, particularly as Picard literally telegraphed his moves in advance, so even a nincompoop like Riker couldn't be caught flatfooted.

Chris OFarrell wrote:Of course we still ignore the fact that Riker didn't simply use the prefix code of the Stargazer ..

In the episode "Unnatural Selection", Picard has to go to his ready room and (IIRC) enter a security code before the computer releases the prefix code of the Lantree to him. Prefix codes may be restricted to persons with the rank of Captain or better.

Uraniun235 wrote:

Chris OFarrell wrote:Of course we still ignore the fact that Riker didn't simply use the prefix code of the Stargazer ..

In the episode "Unnatural Selection", Picard has to go to his ready room and (IIRC) enter a security code before the computer releases the prefix code of the Lantree to him. Prefix codes may be restricted to persons with the rank of Captain or better.

Point, but Kirk had Spock do it....of course he was also a Captian at the time when I think about it

I can't remember it actually saying that it worked because they only had STL sensors? Does anyone have a quote to confirm this?

I thought the idea was that you beat the sensor wave back to the ship so it doesn't matter if the sensors are STL or FTL as long as your FTL drive moves you faster then their FTLS sensor send a signal.