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One thing that always bothered me in TNG onwards was the introduction of the replicators. It's such an unrealistic device with mindstaggering possible negative consequences. In FC, Lily is told the following by Picard:

The economics of the future are somewhat different. You see, money doesn't exist in the 24th century. The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives; we work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity.

We also learn that Picard don't recieve any paid salary. Then we have the replicator. How do this device fit into this, you may think, but what are the driving forces to work etc.? Large portions of the Federation citizens must be unemployed since there wouldn't be any need for certain services or manual work. Of course, we know that the inflated device for some strange reason can't replicate everything. Spare parts and weapons are things that can't be replicated. How is access to replicators and replicator energy divided? Because of the replicators, the vast majority of the Federation citizens must be unemployed, then what are they doing? Has the Federation reached the stage which the Communists (to which some some of my old University professors belongs ) call the Communist society where every individual can reach their true potential in a society totally devoid of class? No, I think not since the Federation is a heavily collective entity. The entire social structure must be solely based on your profession. Picard's brother worked on his wine-yard, solely driven by traditions, not profit. Don't get me wrong, I'm totally dedicated to capitalism and despise communism, but I haven't seen anything that has settled this matter.

EDIT: I almost forgot. How do the Federation handle the fact that resources are limited, even on that large scale (albeit they're smaller than they would be if the Federation encompassed the whole of Milky Way)?

It does make one wonder. Sisko's father ran a restraunt on Earth. He cooked everything in the kitchen and didn't use a replicator. So where did the ingredients come from? How did he pay his waiters and cooks? It could be the restaraunt was subsidized by the Federation as morale booster type place, somewhere to go if you are tired of replicated food. It also makes you wonder what happens to an eighteen year old that doesn't want to join Starfleet or go to a university or a trade school. Does he or she get a free apartment and replicator and live off society, or are they forced to go make something of themselves? Maybe you are seen as abnormal or deviant and need phsyicatric help if you seem lazy or unmotivated. People today strive to make life better for themselves or their family if they are motivated, or live off society if there are not. In the future of TNG the state takes care of everything, so there is little or no motivation, unless it is force fed by the state.

Deathstalker wrote: It also makes you wonder what happens to an eighteen year old that doesn't want to join Starfleet or go to a university or a trade school. .

He becomes a journalist.



In the cashless society of the Federation, does the statement "there is no money" really mean goods and services are given freely, or there is just no physical medium of exchange and stuff is bought and sold with electronic transfer of debits/credits?

Mange the Swede wrote:EDIT: I almost forgot. How do the Federation handle the fact that resources are limited, even on that large scale (albeit puny compared with the SW galaxy)?

You forget to true vastness of space.

There is a double fuckload of resources just in our asteriod belt between Earth & Mars. The Federation spans several hundred solar systems at a minium.

They could fuel their entire civ for the next few million years by just processing the rocks in Sol, without even touching the other solar systems.

Simply put; the Federation is flooded with raw resources. Only limited by their ability to process those resources into complex items.

I know it is entirely non-canonical, but in the trivia section of the "DS9" listing at IMDB.com:

Although we only rarely see it, there is an ATM in Quark's bar. It dispenses the various types of currency used by major races visiting the station: Federation credits, Bajoran litas, Cardassian leks, and Ferengi latinum.

Perhaps Federation citizens are given the basic necessities and are "issued" credits based on what they do to allow them luxories, like bigger living spaces, going to entertainment venues etc.

i read on Ex astra Scientifica that maybe money isnt used in Everyday Life due to the fact that resources are vast. Money however is used rarely. Also i heard that the federation is not communist because it has a elected government.

Enola Straight wrote:In the cashless society of the Federation, does the statement "there is no money" really mean goods and services are given freely, or there is just no physical medium of exchange and stuff is bought and sold with electronic transfer of debits/credits?

Electronic currency is still money.

Dennis Toy wrote:Also i heard that the federation is not communist because it has a elected government.

No elections shown on 12 years of TNG and DS9. There's a 'president' but we have no idea how he came to power. At the very least we never see any character cast a vote in an election.

[EDIT] Changed '14' to '12' as I forgot that the first 2 seasons of DS9 took place during the last 2 seasons of TNG.

Perhaps the Federation president is elected by a commitee.

The President might be appointed by the Federation Council.

We don't even know if there are any elections for Federation positions. People may vote for representatives at a planetary level, and the planetary governments may be the ones who send representatives to the Council.

Deathstalker wrote:I know it is entirely non-canonical, but in the trivia section of the "DS9" listing at IMDB.com:

Although we only rarely see it, there is an ATM in Quark's bar. It dispenses the various types of currency used by major races visiting the station: Federation credits, Bajoran litas, Cardassian leks, and Ferengi latinum.

Perhaps Federation citizens are given the basic necessities and are "issued" credits based on what they do to allow them luxories, like bigger living spaces, going to entertainment venues etc.

Perhaps. Or citizens that have some relatively important civilian work or working in Starfleet are issued credits that allow them to trade things outside the Federation ( that's how I understand the fact that Starfleet personnel on DS9 was able to buy things at shops ). Or both.

Nevermind the existance of 'teleportation credits'.

Social security has just been moved upwards, you are provided with an apartment and limited use of a replicator, anything else you have to work for.

Dennis Toy wrote:i read on Ex astra Scientifica that maybe money isnt used in Everyday Life due to the fact that resources are vast. Money however is used rarely. Also i heard that the federation is not communist because it has a elected government.

Communism isn't about not having elections. They had elections in the Soviet Union also, but the elections were restricted to a few individuals serving one single party. One thing that is very interesting... Let's say you're playing a Star Trek drinking game and drinks every time the word democracy is mentioned, you'd come out pretty sober.

TheDarkling wrote:Social security has just been moved upwards, you are provided with an apartment and limited use of a replicator, anything else you have to work for.

But the Federation does not pay any money for work. Working for the Federation would be worthless.

I noticed on DS9 the other day that in the Sisko restaurant, there were no brand labels on anything. He probably gets everything from a Federation outlet place that grows fresh food, and replicates the processed stuff, like the brandless hot sauce.

evilcat4000 wrote: But the Federation does not pay any money for work. Working for the Federation would be worthless.

My theory boils down to a system where you gain vouchers redeemable at any FedGov affiliated outlet, so Sisko’s restaurant for example would accept them and in turn he would pay his waiters, suppliers etc...

thought i'd go over a few ideas. first, known facts.

1. replicators require raw materials to synthesize their items from. it doesn't come from nowhere.

2. replicators require a good amount of power to operate. exactly how much isn't really known.

3. so far we've seen replicators in starships and big industries, but rarely see them in private citizens homes.

so the basic idea i'm working with is maybe the federation limits its replicators to mass industry, federation outposts, and starships.

we know that replicators can't make things which are too complicated, especially if they're made with rare materials. The federation likely limits its replicator distribution to these main industries, and has public replicators where citizens can access them so many times per week/day/whatever, in order to reflect the work they do in other sectors. that way they conserve the power used to run them and still give their citizens incentive to work.

Darth_Zod wrote: 1. replicators require raw materials to synthesize their items from. it doesn't come from nowhere.

Where do we know this from?

2. replicators require a good amount of power to operate. exactly how much isn't really known.

We have no real way of knowing if it takes lot of power or very little by civilian standards.

3. so far we've seen replicators in starships and big industries, but rarely see them in private citizens homes.

This may be linked to the fact that we rarely see private citizens homes however we do know private citizens can have them, the only thing stopping Picard’s brother (and his mother for that matter) was a preference for real food.

Keiko was shocked the chiefs mother had no replicated meat so replicators have been a widely available household item since the chief was a lad and probably before that.

DS9 quarters available for public habitation all have replicators in them.

so the basic idea i'm working with is maybe the federation limits its replicators to mass industry, federation outposts, and starships.

That doesn't fit in with character statements to contrary.

we know that replicators can't make things which are too complicated, especially if they're made with rare materials.

I am not sure if it has to do with complication so much as to do with the materials themselves, certain materials can't be transported and since replicators are based upon transporter technology it stands to reason many of those items (the ones that cannot be transporter for reasons other than season blocking) cannot be replicated.

The federation likely limits its replicator distribution to these main industries, and has public replicators where citizens can access them so many times per week/day/whatever, in order to reflect the work they do in other sectors. that way they conserve the power used to run them and still give their citizens incentive to work.

People probably do have a set power allotment but I think you are incorrect about the scarcity of replicators.

TheDarkling wrote:

Darth_Zod wrote: 1. replicators require raw materials to synthesize their items from. it doesn't come from nowhere.

Where do we know this from?

various sources. the TM states this (yes, i know it's not canon), as well as other episodes where they say they can't replicate certain items, etc. it's also common sense that the replicators should follow certain laws of physics. the mass for the materials replicated should come from somewhere unless you plan on throwing the law of conservation out the window entirely.

That doesn't fit in with character statements to contrary.

err. examples?

we know that replicators can't make things which are too complicated, especially if they're made with rare materials.

I am not sure if it has to do with complication so much as to do with the materials themselves, certain materials can't be transported and since replicators are based upon transporter technology it stands to reason many of those items (the ones that cannot be transporter for reasons other than season blocking) cannot be replicated.

well . . .if they could replicate incredibly complicated items why not just build a huge replicator and use that to build starships? or replicate all their weaponry on a whim?

Darth_Zod wrote: it's also common sense that the replicators should follow certain laws of physics. the mass for the materials replicated should come from somewhere unless you plan on throwing the law of conservation out the window entirely.

We have seen them reintegrate somebody from their transporter pattern and their "energy" alone.
If you wish to assume they require raw materials then go ahead but we don't know they must and those raw materials could just be blocks of random matter reorganised by the replicator (rocks into pork).

err. examples?

Did you not see the examples I gave above this in the post, if not go back and look at them.

well . . .if they could replicate incredibly complicated items why not just build a huge replicator and use that to build starships? or replicate all their weaponry on a whim?

That could be down to size as opposed to complexity, although we do know that weapons can be replicated as is seen on DS9 (the teleportation gun, the Cardassian disruptor cube etc).

Alferd Packer wrote:I noticed on DS9 the other day that in the Sisko restaurant, there were no brand labels on anything. He probably gets everything from a Federation outlet place that grows fresh food, and replicates the processed stuff, like the brandless hot sauce.

Disney's Celebration, their planned community in Florida, is the same way. No brand labels, no advertisements. In their case, once you reach "Brand Nirvana", you don't need advertisements, your customers don't have a choice, they are immersed in your product, they live in it, they walk around it, they eat it, they go to school in it, and they die in it. I see some startling similarities to the Federation. There is very little practical difference between a monopoly by corporation and a monopoly by state.

TheDarkling wrote:Keiko was shocked the chiefs mother had no replicated meat so replicators have been a widely available household item since the chief was a lad and probably before that.

Actually, Keiko was shocked that Miles mom was willing to handle real meat at all, not that Miles mom had no replicated meat.

Off-topic slighty: Of course, Keiko is a bit of an odd duck. She supposedly grew up in Japan... it's hard to believe that she'd be grossed out by cooking with real meat, considering how much meat is in Japanese cuisine. It's probably like Riker said in another episode "Lonely Among Us", humans had outlawed farming animals for the purpose of food.

In the Human society the great technologically advanced cities of Earth are held up as what everyone should want. The country, and produced goods are frowned upon as primitive.

StarFleet, the upper caste, are all awarded apartments in these cities. Those who do not enter into StarFleet but provide a useful service are given lower domeciles on Earth. For instance Sisko's father and Picard's brother were alotted nice properties but not in the big cities. Then we have the people who don't want to conform and are outcast like Tom or want to make a living and are put in hell holes commonly known as colonies.

Gil Hamilton wrote:

TheDarkling wrote:Keiko was shocked the chiefs mother had no replicated meat so replicators have been a widely available household item since the chief was a lad and probably before that.

Actually, Keiko was shocked that Miles mom was willing to handle real meat at all, not that Miles mom had no replicated meat.

Off-topic slighty: Of course, Keiko is a bit of an odd duck. She supposedly grew up in Japan... it's hard to believe that she'd be grossed out by cooking with real meat, considering how much meat is in Japanese cuisine. It's probably like Riker said in another episode "Lonely Among Us", humans had outlawed farming animals for the purpose of food.

You don't think it's possible that Japanese culture might have changed in three hundred years?.
But that thing about animal farming being outlawed makes sense, with the federations resources they could afford to get all their food from replicators and ship the livestock off to some sort of zoo planet or something.

speaker-to-trolls wrote:

Gil Hamilton wrote:

TheDarkling wrote:Keiko was shocked the chiefs mother had no replicated meat so replicators have been a widely available household item since the chief was a lad and probably before that.

Actually, Keiko was shocked that Miles mom was willing to handle real meat at all, not that Miles mom had no replicated meat.

Off-topic slighty: Of course, Keiko is a bit of an odd duck. She supposedly grew up in Japan... it's hard to believe that she'd be grossed out by cooking with real meat, considering how much meat is in Japanese cuisine. It's probably like Riker said in another episode "Lonely Among Us", humans had outlawed farming animals for the purpose of food.

You don't think it's possible that Japanese culture might have changed in three hundred years?.
But that thing about animal farming being outlawed makes sense, with the federations resources they could afford to get all their food from replicators and ship the livestock off to some sort of zoo planet or something.

Yes, it would indeed be strange if the culture hadn't changed in three hundred years.

About the replicator, there is one advantage. A star ship (such as the Enterprise or whatever) don't need to carry tons of supplies. Even though the food, according to some, is tasteless it seems to provide the necessary nutrients. One thing that hasn't been completely established is what the replicator uses to, hrmmm, replicate food (and other stuff). According to the non-canon Star Trek TNG TM, the replicators uses *technobabble*, lets see if I can narrow it down... organic particulate suspension as well as refuse to replicate food, whereas Janeway mentions in a Voyager episode (can't remember what it's called) that "There is coffee in that nebula", thus indicating the use of the Bussard collectors. What's the word on this?