Tonight's Enterprise(spoilers)

[FaxModem1]

Poor Degra, I was starting to like him.

The special effects are getting REALLY good

Why the heck did they take Hoshi?

[Chris OFarrell]

The Special effects in modern ST are quite possibly the best of any TV show onscreen. Say what you will about the writing, you can't easily complain about the graphics.

Hell one of my fav ST scene is from a DS9 Season 7 episode. 'Once More Into The Breach'. Where a pack of Birds of Prey attack a Cardasian Starbase, decloaking and screaming down to straff the thing to hell...it just looks so damn COOL.

[Admiral_K]

Hopefully, I'll have the episode downloaded by this evening.

[Hardy]

Hi. This would be my first post

Poor Degra, I was starting to like him.

So was I. I was not expecting what happened to him to happen there. I was shocked to see that the Reptillian wasn't arrested by some Xindi military guys. Surely the Reptillians aren't entirely unified. Or are they?

The special effects are getting REALLY good

Yes. They were pretty damn good effects. Note that this season, we actually see yawing and lateral motion of the starship, which is a first for Star Trek. Enterprise's Lateral Motion is a really beautiful thing.
In older shows we see either a frontal assault or an attack with ships moving only along their Z-axes. If the camera gets it right it can look excting.
But NX01 only exist on a computer screen and can be made to move in any direction and in any way.
It was really beautiful watching that space battle. The flight is more like a cloud of gnats than a frontal assault. Enterprise looked more like an F15 than a Starship.

Why the heck did they take Hoshi?

SPOILER











We note that in the middle of that episode the Council mentions that the weapon needs three arming codes to be launched. The Reptillians and Insectoids only have two codes. They need Hoshi to decrypt the last arming code.

[Burak Gazan]

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Degra didnt deserve his fate, although I suppose if you are completely cold-blooded you could say he had fullfilled his purpose Apparently the so-called Xindi alliance has no due process. One things for sure, however this ends, Xindi civilization wont be the same.

And, I hope that scumbag Lizard prick is reduced to a pile of spare body parts, preferably as painfully and horribly as possible

**why steal Hoshi? She's a linguist, sure but how could she possibly crack an alien security code?? Alone , without help except Mr Iguana's coaxing/torture, it doesnt seem very believable

As an aside, by this time next week we will know if the show is returning for another season -- I presume the finale is already in the can, but I wonder if they have a couple alternate endings in case it really is "the end" The trailer seemed to imply more losses and carnage -- geez, they've already killed off 25%+ of the bloody crew and pounded the ship to an inch of total destruction, what the hell is left??

[Hardy]

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Degra didnt deserve his fate, although I suppose if you are completely cold-blooded you could say he had fullfilled his purpose Apparently the so-called Xindi alliance has no due process. One things for sure, however this ends, Xindi civilization wont be the same.

Agreed. I was shocked at how the council dealt with the murder. Fortunately Degra had, like you said, fufilled his purpose and helped build the Xindi-Human alliance.

And, I hope that scumbag Lizard prick is reduced to a pile of spare body parts, preferably as painfully and horribly as possible

And hopefully either by Trip or a MACO.

**why steal Hoshi? She's a linguist, sure but how could she possibly crack an alien security code?? Alone , without help except Mr Iguana's coaxing/torture, it doesnt seem very believable

This is Ensign Sato we are talking about. She is the intuitive communications officer. A walking NSA, if I may say so. I dotn know how, but they are going to brainwash her to persuade her.

As an aside, by this time next week we will know if the show is returning for another season -- I presume the finale is already in the can, but I wonder if they have a couple alternate endings in case it really is "the end" The trailer seemed to imply more losses and carnage -- geez, they've already killed off 25%+ of the bloody crew and pounded the ship to an inch of total destruction, what the hell is left??

Not much. For dramatic purposes they will send Enterprise into a space battle with inherent battle damage. The MACO's may get killed off next week trying to rescue Hoshi.

But with episodes like what we just saw, it can easily be presumed that Enterprise is here to stay.

[Patrick Degan]

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**why steal Hoshi? She's a linguist, sure but how could she possibly crack an alien security code?? Alone , without help except Mr Iguana's coaxing/torture, it doesnt seem very believable

She can't. It isn't plausible in the slightest. Translating languages and decryption are two entirely different disciplines. The stupid writers evidently believe that they are one in the same, but forgot about that little thing called mathematics which is the basis for any complex cipher. Particularly for utilities such as computer security codes. Morons.

[neoolong]

If this is a spoiler thread, then what's with all the big gaps?

[Hardy]

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She can't. It isn't plausible in the slightest. Translating languages and decryption are two entirely different disciplines. The stupid writers evidently believe that they are one in the same, but forgot about that little thing called mathematics which is the basis for any complex cipher. Particularly for utilities such as computer security codes. Morons.

I am aware that there are major differences. Now Hoshi is an exolinguist who has to deal wth languages that have variations and dialects that can be explained mathmatically.
You must also note that besides being a linguist, Ensign Sato is a communications officer who is trained to deal with media, encryption, data analysis and communications. It would be no surprsie if she couldcrack that code. Note that she has already learned the Xindi written language so she would have little trouble with the interface.
She also has that intuition, which is somewhat of a requisite when hiring NSA emplyeees.

I'm just surprised that they need an enemy crewman to do their dirty work.

[Patrick Degan]

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She can't. It isn't plausible in the slightest. Translating languages and decryption are two entirely different disciplines. The stupid writers evidently believe that they are one in the same, but forgot about that little thing called mathematics which is the basis for any complex cipher. Particularly for utilities such as computer security codes. Morons.

I am aware that there are major differences. Now Hoshi is an exolinguist who has to deal wth languages that have variations and dialects that can be explained mathmatically.

That sounds like horseshit as well, but we'll let that slide for the moment.

You must also note that besides being a linguist, Ensign Sato is a communications officer who is trained to deal with media, encryption, data analysis and communications. It would be no surprsie if she couldcrack that code. Note that she has already learned the Xindi written language so she would have little trouble with the interface.

Noted on her capabilities and training.

I'm just surprised that they need an enemy crewman to do their dirty work.

You'd think they'd have mathematicians and codebreakers of their own, which is another problem with the idea here. Sounds like writers' busywork for the character as well as a very obvious artificial danger plot device.

[Hardy]

You'd think they'd have mathematicians and codebreakers of their own, which is another problem with the idea here.

Right. Perhaps there may be some sort of limitation. Genetic, or the Xindi Reptillian brains are not smart enough to figure out these codes. They still could have captured a humanoid.

Sounds like writers' busywork for the character as well as a very obvious artificial danger plot device.

Yes. It's going to put Major Hayes and the other MACOs in harm's way which will likely kill them off, while disrupting the weapon somewhat and doing something heroic. I personally belive that the MACO's will fail and the Reptillians will initiate the countdown. Thus it's up to a crack team of Starfleet Officers to save the day without the help of the MACOs in Zero Hour.

I cant wait to see the MACO's finest hour next week.

[Burak Gazan]

If this is a spoiler thread, then what's with all the big gaps?

In case someone forgets and doesnt want to get spoiled after all

[Patrick Degan]

You'd think they'd have mathematicians and codebreakers of their own, which is another problem with the idea here.

Right. Perhaps there may be some sort of limitation. Genetic, or the Xindi Reptillian brains are not smart enough to figure out these codes. They still could have captured a humanoid.

That makes even less sense. A brain which cannot comprehend mathematics cannot comprehend abstract reasoning cannot develop intelligence beyond that necessary for basic survival, which is only one step above raw instinct. This is not the path to any sort of technological civilisation much less a spacefaring one.

Sounds like writers' busywork for the character as well as a very obvious artificial danger plot device.

Yes. It's going to put Major Hayes and the other MACOs in harm's way which will likely kill them off, while disrupting the weapon somewhat and doing something heroic. I personally belive that the MACO's will fail and the Reptillians will initiate the countdown. Thus it's up to a crack team of Starfleet Officers to save the day without the help of the MACOs in Zero Hour.

I cant wait to see the MACO's finest hour next week.

Yes. All sadly predictable.

[Wild Karrde]

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We never saw the alternate NX Enterprise get destroyed. IMNSHO it's gonna come down to that Enterprise making an 11th hour save, most likely getting destroyed in the process.

10:1 odds it'll be in some kind of ramming attack.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Gah, you don't need spoiler space in a damned spoiler thread...

[Wild Karrde]

Gah, you don't need spoiler space in a damned spoiler thread...

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[Admiral_K]

You'd think they'd have mathematicians and codebreakers of their own, which is another problem with the idea here. Sounds like writers' busywork for the character as well as a very obvious artificial danger plot device.

Perhaps they do, but the lizards don't exactly seem to be the brainy types. Perhaps they were impressed with Hoshi's abilities in comparisson to what they had available.

[Admiral_K]

You'd think they'd have mathematicians and codebreakers of their own, which is another problem with the idea here.

Right. Perhaps there may be some sort of limitation. Genetic, or the Xindi Reptillian brains are not smart enough to figure out these codes. They still could have captured a humanoid.

That makes even less sense. A brain which cannot comprehend mathematics cannot comprehend abstract reasoning cannot develop intelligence beyond that necessary for basic survival, which is only one step above raw instinct. This is not the path to any sort of technological civilisation much less a spacefaring one.

Slippery slope fallacy.

Just because the reptillians, or perhaps more specifically the reptillians available at the time they made their move to capture the "doom sphere", may not have the training or intelligence to break a complex security code. figure out the codes doesn't mean they con't comprehend mathematics or abstract reasoning.

As I said, Hoshi may have impressed them to the point where they feel she could be made of use to them.

[Hardy]

We never saw the alternate NX Enterprise get destroyed. IMNSHO it's gonna come down to that Enterprise making an 11th hour save, most likely getting destroyed in the process.

10:1 odds it'll be in some kind of ramming attack.

I somewhat agree. This is a big season in the NX01 Saga so I wont be surprised if they ram the weapon or find some sort of underhanded use for the transporter. It's possible that the transporter may not be available.

[Patrick Degan]

Right. Perhaps there may be some sort of limitation. Genetic, or the Xindi Reptillian brains are not smart enough to figure out these codes. They still could have captured a humanoid.

That makes even less sense. A brain which cannot comprehend mathematics cannot comprehend abstract reasoning cannot develop intelligence beyond that necessary for basic survival, which is only one step above raw instinct. This is not the path to any sort of technological civilisation much less a spacefaring one.

Slippery slope fallacy.

Just because the reptillians, or perhaps more specifically the reptillians available at the time they made their move to capture the "doom sphere", may not have the training or intelligence to break a complex security code. figure out the codes doesn't mean they con't comprehend mathematics or abstract reasoning.

Um, bullshit.

How did the reptillians even get into space in the first place? How can they programme computers or pilot spaceships if they are not intelligent enough to comprehend mathematics? And if they can do so, then how is it that their understanding extends only as far as being able to perform navigation but not crack a security code? Are you seriously proposing that the reptillians have no mathematicians or science officers capable of tackling a decryption exercise?

[Hardy]

Perhaps there is some sort of technological thing that limits the ability of the other Xindi to start working on decryption. Perhaps they need the DNA of three Xindi council members to access a code. Unfortunately that is not available. That could be the reason. But if that were so I am sure that somewhere along the lines there would also be a lockout for humans as well.

That makes even less sense. A brain which cannot comprehend mathematics cannot comprehend abstract reasoning cannot develop intelligence beyond that necessary for basic survival, which is only one step above raw instinct. This is not the path to any sort of technological civilisation much less a spacefaring one.

When I made that statement I was trying to say that the Xindi Reptillian brains were not adequately suited to breaking the Codes. That means nothing as to their ability to get into space.

How did the reptillians even get into space in the first place? How can they programme computers or pilot spaceships if they are not intelligent enough to comprehend mathematics? And if they can do so, then how is it that their understanding extends only as far as being able to perform navigation but not crack a security code? Are you seriously proposing that the reptillians have no mathematicians or science officers capable of tackling a decryption exercise?

You seem to be ignoring the possibility of the other four races of the Xindi performing this research to get the Xindi-Reptillians into space. The Reptillians seem to be the military arm of the Xindi race, but it also seems that they have absolutely no interest in science or exploration. It is quite possible that the Reptilians got into space on the backs of the more "reasonable" races.

Also you are assuming I said that they are unable to understand mathmatics. In perspective I would be saying that the Reptillian brain cracking a code is like putting a sixth grader up against a college level calculus problem. It's not that they dont understand mathmatics, but that they cant get to the correct degree of mathmatical or logical ability.

As for the rest, it's all left to computers.

(Note that when I'm comparing them to sixth graders I am talking about their logical and mathmatical ability and not their mentality or personalities.)

[Admiral_K]

That makes even less sense. A brain which cannot comprehend mathematics cannot comprehend abstract reasoning cannot develop intelligence beyond that necessary for basic survival, which is only one step above raw instinct. This is not the path to any sort of technological civilisation much less a spacefaring one.

Slippery slope fallacy.

Just because the reptillians, or perhaps more specifically the reptillians available at the time they made their move to capture the "doom sphere", may not have the training or intelligence to break a complex security code. figure out the codes doesn't mean they con't comprehend mathematics or abstract reasoning.

Um, bullshit.

How did the reptillians even get into space in the first place? How can they programme computers or pilot spaceships if they are not intelligent enough to comprehend mathematics? And if they can do so, then how is it that their understanding extends only as far as being able to perform navigation but not crack a security code? Are you seriously proposing that the reptillians have no mathematicians or science officers capable of tackling a decryption exercise?

DUDE? Where the fuck did I say they weren't intelligent enough to comprehend mathematics? The ONLY PERSON SAYING THAT IS YOU.

Lets go over this again slowly so you can understand ok?

First poster wrote: Right. Perhaps there may be some sort of limitation. Genetic, or the Xindi Reptillian brains are not smart enough to figure out these codes. They still could have captured a humanoid

Your reply: That makes even less sense. A brain which cannot comprehend mathematics cannot comprehend abstract reasoning cannot develop intelligence beyond that necessary for basic survival, which is only one step above raw instinct. This is not the path to any sort of technological civilisation much less a spacefaring one.

No where did the first poster say the reptillians were incapable of comprehending mathematics, or abstract thinking. He merely stated they may simply be incappable of deciphering a complex code. I consider this to be a slippery slope fallacy, although I suppose you could also call it a leap in logic.

Secondly, considering that this plan to hijack the sphere was hastily put into action (which you probably didn't know, but not my fault if you speak out of ignorance), they most likely didn't have access to code breakers. Or perhaps they feel that since a mamillian mind developed the code, a mamillian mind would be better suited to cracking it faster then they could by doing it all themselves.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Let's not forget any codebreaking would require significant amount of computer work, systems with which Hoshi is unfamiliar with.


Of course, this is Star Trek, where all computers are 100% the same and the codes probably "Xindi Tango 12345."

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

The whole idea you're saying is Hoshi is some kind of mathematic genuis even though we've never seen her do so much as challenge T'Pol to a game of chess (of course, showing an ability before it is immediatly needed for the plot is for weaker shows) or anything more then speak whale. And that Insectoids have no codebreakers that can beat a captured coerced prisoner even though in next 150 years it would be of critical importance.

[Patrick Degan]

Slippery slope fallacy.

Just because the reptillians, or perhaps more specifically the reptillians available at the time they made their move to capture the "doom sphere", may not have the training or intelligence to break a complex security code. figure out the codes doesn't mean they con't comprehend mathematics or abstract reasoning.

Um, bullshit.

How did the reptillians even get into space in the first place? How can they programme computers or pilot spaceships if they are not intelligent enough to comprehend mathematics? And if they can do so, then how is it that their understanding extends only as far as being able to perform navigation but not crack a security code? Are you seriously proposing that the reptillians have no mathematicians or science officers capable of tackling a decryption exercise?

DUDE? Where the fuck did I say they weren't intelligent enough to comprehend mathematics? The ONLY PERSON SAYING THAT IS YOU.

Lets go over this again slowly so you can understand ok?

Arrogant little fuck, aren't you? But do ramble on...

First poster wrote: Right. Perhaps there may be some sort of limitation. Genetic, or the Xindi Reptillian brains are not smart enough to figure out these codes. They still could have captured a humanoid

Your reply: That makes even less sense. A brain which cannot comprehend mathematics cannot comprehend abstract reasoning cannot develop intelligence beyond that necessary for basic survival, which is only one step above raw instinct. This is not the path to any sort of technological civilisation much less a spacefaring one.

Nowhere did the first poster say the reptillians were incapable of comprehending mathematics, or abstract thinking. He merely stated they may simply be incappable of deciphering a complex code. I consider this to be a slippery slope fallacy, although I suppose you could also call it a leap in logic.

Wrong on both counts. The ability to do one necessarily implies the ability to do the other. This is why the initial argument doesn't make sense in the first place.

Oh, and BTW, it was Hardy who said:

Right. Perhaps there may be some sort of limitation. Genetic, or the Xindi Reptillian brains are not smart enough to figure out these codes. They still could have captured a humanoid.

Exactly what is to be implied by the phrase "some sort of limitation" and the word "Genetic" as to the Xindi reptiles mental capacities?

Secondly, considering that this plan to hijack the sphere was hastily put into action (which you probably didn't know, but not my fault if you speak out of ignorance), they most likely didn't have access to code breakers. Or perhaps they feel that since a mamillian mind developed the code, a mamillian mind would be better suited to cracking it faster then they could by doing it all themselves.

So... they put together a plan to hijack the Sphere o'Doom but none of them think to include a codebreaker along with the expedition in case the onboard computers just might possibly be encrypted.

And what difference should there be between a reptillian brain and a mamallian one in comprehending mathematics or carrying out a decryption exercise?

And I've never argued that the reptiles can't understand math (nice Strawman, BTW). I'm arguing that if they are at all capable of going into space, they must have this understanding to begin with. Which is what renders the kidnapping of Hoshi a very obvious and clumsy plot device.

None of this occured to you and yet you sneer at someone else alledgedly speaking from ignorance. Most amusing.