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Between the two even numbered TNG movies I decided put up the merits to debate. Now I know that many people here find Nemesis to be a huge blemish in Trek, but when I watched it some time back with very low expectataions, I actually liked it better than I did First Contact. In contrast My first viewing of it, I had high expectation and I was somewhat dissapointed. (but enjoyed it overall) So I have to say that I actually liked Nemesis more than First Contact. The premise of FC just made less sense to me. Overall both film were hugely dissapointing, mind you. They will never hold a torch to the TOS films.

My Problems with FC:
-The premise of the Borg trying to stop First Contact made absolutely no sense. or Assimilating Earth in the 21st century.
-Setting:The overused postapocalytic Earth, I thought was poorly done.
-Zephane Cochrane: The fact that He could make device so revolutionary in such a shitty enviroment goes beyond my mind of believablity as far as scifi goes. (coming from me that's not a good thing) Plus I didn't really like how he was written or his lines.
-The Enterprise crew's decision on revealing themselves as time travellers made little sense to me. Plus the subsequent blatant interference with the timeline. IIRC wasn't Lily supposed to have gone up with Cochrane?
-The Beginning of the end for the Borg: Nothing they did in the movie tactically seemed impressive or intelligent. (that's minus Time Travel) The dumbing down of the Borg began here.


My Problems with NEM:
-B-4: A silly Blatant overly convienient plot device.
-The Scimitar: started out interesting until it was made too powerful.
-Death of Data: The concept and how it played out
-The Superweapon: Silly ass idea.
-Shinzon: Potentially a good concept gone bad.
(should have been less of a Villain)
-The Fact that Shinzon was the main Villain, and not Sela.
-No Spock. (more of an continuity thing)

Well that what I have in cons for both movies so far. Much more to come...

Sorta like asking which has the less offensive smell: dogshit or horseshit.

Patrick Degan wrote:Sorta like asking which has the less offensive smell: dogshit or horseshit.

True, but after watching Nemesis, I realized that some of the bashing is somewhat undeserved. (i.e worst of the series. That goes to Insurrection) Whereas, after seeing First Contact I was let down. I decided to break them down into what I liked least about each.

My biggest gripe with Nemesis was Shinzon. Why would he wish to attack Earth and kill all life on the planet? What had the Federation ever done to him?

In the original script, it was implied that the destruction of Earth would be the first step in a full-scale invasion of the Federation. Given how localised power tends to be in the ST universe, that would be reasonably logical.

However, Berman and/or Baird decided that the film would be better off without that information, with the result being that Shinzon looks like a crybaby who just wants to get his name in the history books.

Personally, I think that Shinzon would have worked as a weapon against PIcard that maybe Sela had Discovered. But then Shinzon isn't toally villainous, and in the end tries to redeem himself.

But Overall FC has bigger plot problems.

First Contact: Used existing continuity, even if it was damaged. Used famous enemy. Was decently mindless action.

Nemesis: Shits on continuity, makes up villains when excellent famous enemies existing. Even the 'mindless action' doesn't cut it.

Patrick Degan wrote:Sorta like asking which has the less offensive smell: dogshit or horseshit.

Actually, that is very easy. Dogshit smells worse by far. I know having lived around both dogs and horses.

FC was less painful.

Didn't do what wasn't already being done to the Borg by making them wusses even further(because to have a decent for for Next Gen would be a heinous thought). And at least had enoough action to make it low level popcorn flick.

Nemesis had no such quality, but was a bad unintentional comedy that insults the viewer.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI wrote:Between the two even numbered TNG movies I decided put up the merits to debate. Now I know that many people here find Nemesis to be a huge blemish in Trek, but when I watched it some time back with very low expectataions, I actually liked it better than I did First Contact. In contrast My first viewing of it, I had high expectation and I was somewhat dissapointed. (but enjoyed it overall) So I have to say that I actually liked Nemesis more than First Contact. The premise of FC just made less sense to me. Overall both film were hugely dissapointing, mind you. They will never hold a torch to the TOS films.

My Problems with FC:
-The premise of the Borg trying to stop First Contact made absolutely no sense. or Assimilating Earth in the 21st century.

This would've removed the pesky humans as a threat. But then again so does sending two or more cubes.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI wrote:-Setting:The overused postapocalytic Earth, I thought was poorly done.

In every ST series, Earth was mentioned of having been through WWIII. They couldn't concentrate on the post-apocalyptic Earth since it was mainly irrelevant to the story. It was just a backdrop, no need to delve further into it.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI wrote:-Zephane Cochrane: The fact that He could make device so revolutionary in such a shitty enviroment goes beyond my mind of believablity as far as scifi goes. (coming from me that's not a good thing) Plus I didn't really like how he was written or his lines.

Well B&B certainly butchered that character.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI wrote:-The Enterprise crew's decision on revealing themselves as time travellers made little sense to me. Plus the subsequent blatant interference with the timeline. IIRC wasn't Lily supposed to have gone up with Cochrane?

With the exception of DS9 (and probably ENT) since when was the preservation of the timeline important to either E-D\E and Voyager?

THEHOOLIGANJEDI wrote:-The Beginning of the end for the Borg: Nothing they did in the movie tactically seemed impressive or intelligent. (that's minus Time Travel) The dumbing down of the Borg began here.

I disagree with you there. Voy "Scorpion" was the beginning of the Borg's castration.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI wrote:My Problems with NEM:<snip>

Did not like NEM so I won't even bother with it.

FC is my favourite TNG movie.

First Contact is the best TNG movie. It has a great plot, the biggest Star Trek villain and lots of action.

I still can't sit through Nemesis without falling asleep.

Gandalf wrote:I still can't sit through Nemesis without falling asleep.

Hehe.

Robert Walper wrote:

Patrick Degan wrote:Sorta like asking which has the less offensive smell: dogshit or horseshit.

Actually, that is very easy. Dogshit smells worse by far. I know having lived around both dogs and horses.

Of course that still leaves the question as to which of the TNG movies in question is comparable to which type of shit.

Patrick Degan wrote:

Robert Walper wrote:

Patrick Degan wrote:Sorta like asking which has the less offensive smell: dogshit or horseshit.

Actually, that is very easy. Dogshit smells worse by far. I know having lived around both dogs and horses.

Of course that still leaves the question as to which of the TNG movies in question is comparable to which type of shit.

True. Using your analogy, I'd submit Nemesis fills the "dogshit" catagory.

Both films are stupid beyond belief. However, I would have to say that Nemesis was more offensive. FC shit on continuity and had plot holes galore but it didn't have quite as many "why oh why the fuck don't those idiots do this ..." moments as Nemesis.

PS. Has anyone ever seen a postapocalyptic Earth which was as ordinary-looking as the post-apocalyptic Earth in STFC? Fuck, the campground near my old house looked just like that.

That should be no brainer. Nemeis is easily the worst trek movie ever.

Darth Wong wrote:Both films are stupid beyond belief. However, I would have to say that Nemesis was more offensive. FC shit on continuity and had plot holes galore but it didn't have quite as many "why oh why the fuck don't those idiots do this ..." moments as Nemesis.

PS. Has anyone ever seen a postapocalyptic Earth which was as ordinary-looking as the post-apocalyptic Earth in STFC? Fuck, the campground near my old house looked just like that.

A few places in Fallout 2 carried that. Except for the Scorpions the size of Buicks, I mean.

BY FAR Nemesis. BY FAR.

FC was okay. It was sort of fun in a messed up way, and while it did mess with continuity, it did not make me think less of the characters, or destroy my faith in the franchise. Nemesis was a piece of shit beyond my ability to create. It was RIDICULOUS how horrible that film was, given the expectations heaped on it for being the last film of the series. I spent almost the entire film cringing in my seat and staring in awe at how stupid the characters in it were, how horrible the writing was and how transparent its plot devices were. FC gave some cheap thrills. It had some tense moments, and I would even say I had fun with it even though I didn't necessarily think it was a high-quality movie. Nemesis had none of that, and I would just as soon put it out of mind than see it again.

Well i found FC disspapointing. I expected more from that movie when i first saw it.

I havnt seen Nemesis yet (and from what i heared about it, i probably never will ). If it turns out bad i wont be dissapointed as i already expecting it to be bad

Nemesis was definitely the most disappointing.

First Contact, in spite of all it's flaws, was still a decent action movie, and most of the characters had great moments, or at least cute/funny ones. Seeing Picard go Moby Dick was cool, but frankly I didn't like what the movie did to the Borg.

FC could have been a better movie. However, at least you could sit down and watch it and not cringe - you couldn't do that with Nemesis.

actually, im starting to want to see nemesis just to see how bad it really is

wautd wrote:actually, im starting to want to see nemesis just to see how bad it really is

Peculiar.

Have you seen the "synopsis" on the main site? It's Nemesis in 5 mins... and more entertaining. (not to suck up or anything - it actually is pretty funny)

Stofsk wrote:

wautd wrote:actually, im starting to want to see nemesis just to see how bad it really is

Peculiar.

Have you seen the "synopsis" on the main site? It's Nemesis in 5 mins... and more entertaining. (not to suck up or anything - it actually is pretty funny)

yeah i laughed my ass off.

Looked more of a "Hot Shots" kinda movie

Stofsk wrote: Have you seen the "synopsis" on the main site? It's Nemesis in 5 mins... and more entertaining. (not to suck up or anything - it actually is pretty funny)

Here here.