The Length of the Battle in FC

[Jon]

Is it plausible that from the initiation of battle with the cube in the Typhon Sector, till it reached Earth- one month had passed? Of course, the way the scene works, you'd believe the Enterprise got to 001 within hours, but it was patrolling the Neutral Zone- and from what I've calculated it would take a month at Maximum sustainable warp to return to Earth. As it arrived, the Borg Cube was also approaching...

Please piss on me if I am wrong, just something that has been troubling me. Starfleet must have sustained heavy losses, which were never mentioned in DS9, for instance... (afaik)

[Stofsk]

Is it plausible that from the initiation of battle with the cube in the Typhon Sector, till it reached Earth- one month had passed? Of course, the way the scene works, you'd believe the Enterprise got to 001 within hours, but it was patrolling the Neutral Zone- and from what I've calculated it would take a month at Maximum sustainable warp to return to Earth. As it arrived, the Borg Cube was also approaching...

Had FC been a month long battle between the Federation and a Borg fleet I feel it would have been an improvement. However, I think the Romulan Neutral zone is extraordinarily close to Earth given that the E/R Wars were fought relatively early in Earth's interstellar adventures. What I'm trying to say is I think the impression we get from the film - that the E is only a few hours away - is right.

Please piss on me if I am wrong, just something that has been troubling me. Starfleet must have sustained heavy losses, which were never mentioned in DS9, for instance... (afaik)

The only thing DS9 mentions about this issue is in that season 5 episode which has the Dominion finally come through the wormhole and begin their naughtiness. All Sisko says is "SF is spread pretty thin." What the hell does that mean? Who knows. SF probably sustained some damage, but a mere 6 months later and they were launching fleets against the Dominion. Go figure.

[seanrobertson]

Jon,

I certainly ain't gonna piss on you, but I have to confess a month sounds extremely long. How did you come to that figure?

Oh, and FWIW, the DS9 writers did make an awkward effort to mention losses to the Borg: Sisko commented on "the recent Borg incursion" in the fifth season episode "In Purgatory's Shadow," which aired sometime after "FC" was in theatres.

Unfortunately, according to stardates the events of "FC" happened around the 6th season's "Rocks and Shoals" IIRC--several months after "IPS." That'd seem to indicate someone fucked up the stardates very badly, or there was a third major Borg attack of which we're unaware.

[Jon]

I came to that idea by working on a few distances mentioned in canon episodes.

Gamma Hydrae II is mentioned in TOS and TWOK. In a TOS episode it is said to be just within the Neutral Zone and 132.111 ly away from Earth.

As far as I know, the Enterprise E's Maxiumum sustainable speed is warp 9.2, which is 1816c. Which leads me to believe it would take ~27 days to reach Earth. Just a quick calc, I may be off...

[Sharp-kun]

I came to that idea by working on a few distances mentioned in canon episodes.

Gamma Hydrae II is mentioned in TOS and TWOK. In a TOS episode it is said to be just within the Neutral Zone and 132.111 ly away from Earth.

Wasn't Gamma Hydrae in the Klingon Neutral Zone?

[TheDarkling]

I came to that idea by working on a few distances mentioned in canon episodes.

Gamma Hydrae II is mentioned in TOS and TWOK. In a TOS episode it is said to be just within the Neutral Zone and 132.111 ly away from Earth.

As far as I know, the Enterprise E's Maxiumum sustainable speed is warp 9.2, which is 1816c. Which leads me to believe it would take ~27 days to reach Earth. Just a quick calc, I may be off...

That speed is way too slow, 20,000c would be a closer estimate.

[Chris OFarrell]

The distance of the Neutral Zone to Earth changes every bloody episode with the Romulans!

[Jon]

I came to that idea by working on a few distances mentioned in canon episodes.

Gamma Hydrae II is mentioned in TOS and TWOK. In a TOS episode it is said to be just within the Neutral Zone and 132.111 ly away from Earth.

Wasn't Gamma Hydrae in the Klingon Neutral Zone?

I'll double check on that, but either way, both NZ's are about as distant from Earth (in practice) afaik.

That speed is way too slow, 20,000c would be a closer estimate.

Nope, I've checked various sources.

[Super-Gagme]

Here is a rough reason how Earth can be close AND far to the Neutral zone.

---------------------------------------------------------
G
---------------------------------------------------------
___________________E

E=Earth
G= Gamma Hydrae II
-=Neutral Zone
_=Space filler because the bastard thing ignores the spaces for some reason

As you can see, Earth is X distance from the Neutral Zone. G is Y distance from Neutral zone. Y > X. Y & X = In Neutral zone. Do you follow?

[TheDarkling]

That speed is way too slow, 20,000c would be a closer estimate.

Nope, I've checked various sources.

I suppose it depends upon which figures you believe, your figure however seems to be near the low end.

[Jon]

Here is a rough reason how Earth can be close AND far to the Neutral zone.

---------------------------------------------------------
G
---------------------------------------------------------
___________________E

E=Earth
G= Gamma Hydrae II
-=Neutral Zone
_=Space filler because the bastard thing ignores the spaces for some reason

As you can see, Earth is X distance from the Neutral Zone. G is Y distance from Neutral zone. Y > X. Y & X = In Neutral zone. Do you follow?

Indeed I understand this But the neutral zone is fairly small (it defintely doesn't run the entire length of the RSE/FED border. Even disregarding Gamma Hydrae, I'm just double checking my TNG Companion book now, I am sure I can provide canon evidence of it being confirmed on screen that the quickest possible journey to the RNZ from 001 is around a month.

Darkling, I use figures I've heard in TNG and DS9 (I know on screen this is sometimes idiotically disregarded, but the general concensus is that 9.2= ~1800c

[Darth Wong]

Is it plausible that from the initiation of battle with the cube in the Typhon Sector, till it reached Earth- one month had passed? Of course, the way the scene works, you'd believe the Enterprise got to 001 within hours, but it was patrolling the Neutral Zone- and from what I've calculated it would take a month at Maximum sustainable warp to return to Earth. As it arrived, the Borg Cube was also approaching...

Several possibilities:

1. The Neutral Zone has moved since TOS.
2. The Neutral Zone is a long border and certain parts of that border are much closer to Earth than others.
3. The Enterprise-E is really that much faster than the E-Nil.

Or a combination of the above.

Please piss on me if I am wrong ...

I had no idea you were into that sort of thing.

[Jon]

Several possibilities:

1. The Neutral Zone has moved since TOS.
2. The Neutral Zone is a long border and certain parts of that border are much closer to Earth than others.
3. The Enterprise-E is really that much faster than the E-Nil.

Or a combination of the above.

The more I think about it, the more I think a battle longer than a few hours and in the realms of weeks would be plausible, We know that the Borg were detected by Deep Space 5- and, as given by the name Deep Space- that isn't going to be too close to Earth- so why would an assembled fleet wait until the Cube was just a few hours away from Earth before engaging?

I had no idea you were into that sort of thing.

Well, I am English

[Uraniun235]

Wasn't the E-D exploring the Typhon Expanse sometime in the later half of the TNG series? If the Typhon Expanse were located in the Typhon sector, might that imply that the Typhon sector is indeed rather far away from Earth?

Starfleet might well have fought a running battle with the Borg for quite some time... although if it took a long time for the battle as well as the E-E to get to Earth, it raises the question of why nobody at Starfleet Command challenged Picard to explain why he wasn't on his assigned patrol during the time he was en route.

[Rogue 9]

Well, to quote Data, "To hell with our orders." They may well have.

The thing that clinches a short time frame for me is that I'm pretty sure I remember Picard ordering red alert right when they left. Running on red alert for a weeks long journey just doesn't make any sense. (If I remember incorrectly, please give me five seconds head start.)

[Darth Wong]

The more I think about it, the more I think a battle longer than a few hours and in the realms of weeks would be plausible,

Defiant was there at the beginning of the battle according to the audio, and was definitely still there when the E-E showed up. Does it really seem likely to you that a single ship would engage the Borg and still be alive and fighting after weeks of continuous combat?

We know that the Borg were detected by Deep Space 5- and, as given by the name Deep Space- that isn't going to be too close to Earth- so why would an assembled fleet wait until the Cube was just a few hours away from Earth before engaging?

Because the cube was approaching too quickly to rendezvous and intercept it anywhere but just barely short of its destination?

[Joe Momma]

IIRC (I don't have a copy of FC with me), the Ent-E crew listened to the beginning of the battle, then Picard cut the audio and asked how long it would take to get to the fight at maximum warp. Data answered 2-3 hours (I don't recall the exact time stated) and Picard ordered the Ent-E to head to the battle site at maximum warp.

So the battle would have only been three at most, unless I'm horribly mistaken in my recollection.

-- Joe Momma

[Metrion Cascade]

Defiant was there at the beginning of the battle according to the audio, and was definitely still there when the E-E showed up. Does it really seem likely to you that a single ship would engage the Borg and still be alive and fighting after weeks of continuous combat?

The Defiant isn't a single ship. It's the Defiant.

[Metrion Cascade]

In the initial briefing, Data says it's 3 hours, 25 minutes from the E-E's location at the opening of FC to Earth. At the same time, the cube was "less than an hour" from the Federation border (the border with who, they don't say). But the E-E may not have been AT the border with the Romulan Neutral zone from the outset. They may have had to go there from wherever they were at the beginning (after getting their orders). Except the clouds in the opening scene and the ones in the scene where Picard decides to violate orders seem to look the same.

[Jon]

Defiant was there at the beginning of the battle according to the audio, and was definitely still there when the E-E showed up. Does it really seem likely to you that a single ship would engage the Borg and still be alive and fighting after weeks of continuous combat?

Well, the Defiant was designed for this very eventuallity, it seems much more plausible that it lasted a few days/weeks than a few hours (though I'm aware of course it survived ) It would help if we could confirm the location of the Typhon sector with regards to Earth because that is where the engagement began.

Because the cube was approaching too quickly to rendezvous and intercept it anywhere but just barely short of its destination?

It's a possibility I suppose, we know the Borg are capable of much faster sustainable speeds than Starfleet vessels, so I can't argue that point.

Metrion Cascade- I assume the E-E did make it to the border and was under going patrol, since Riker gives his first report of their first sweep to Picard in his ready room. 3.5 hours is an impossible figure and can only be blamed on shitty writing. At Warp 9.2 it would take 5.4 hours to travel just one light year- which isn't even half way towards Earths closest star. Even at 9.9 this would only be cut to 14 hours, 9.99 2.8 hours.

(I'm using the TNG scale as quoted from the Star Trek Encyclopedia, may not be official canon but it's the best I can do)

[Sharp-kun]

Well, the Defiant was designed for this very eventuallity, it seems much more plausible that it lasted a few days/weeks than a few hours (though I'm aware of course it survived ) It would help if we could confirm the location of the Typhon sector with regards to Earth because that is where the engagement began.

Do you think the crew could take week of non-stop combat? How would you sleep?

[Jon]

Well, the Defiant was designed for this very eventuallity, it seems much more plausible that it lasted a few days/weeks than a few hours (though I'm aware of course it survived ) It would help if we could confirm the location of the Typhon sector with regards to Earth because that is where the engagement began.

Do you think the crew could take week of non-stop combat? How would you sleep?

The definat could fall back, to restock weapons, rotate crew etc etc - surely not all battles are over in a few hours? How about RL situations? Men still manage to live/get sleep etc etc when in battle for days/weeks- it happened alot during WW2.

[Stark]

Well, the Defiant was designed for this very eventuallity, it seems much more plausible that it lasted a few days/weeks than a few hours (though I'm aware of course it survived ) It would help if we could confirm the location of the Typhon sector with regards to Earth because that is where the engagement began.

ST ships never survive more than a few minutes of combat, particularly not the way Worf fights.

[Batman]

It should be noted that Data's 3h25min figure is NOT for the trip to Earth, but to where the fleet is assembling.
When they listen to the battle (which, given that by then the E-E has arrived at the Neutral Zone and already started cartographing (or whatever) the area, is propably quite a while later) and Picard finally orders 'Set a course for Earth. Maximum Warp'. no time frame for the arrival is given (though I agree weeks spend on Red Alert sound excessive).

[Admiral_K]

There is no way this battle lasted more than a day, and likely not more than a few hours. Most starship combat we've seen is usually over in a few minutes, and it is unlikely starfleet could pour enough ships to make the battle last that long.

There may have been skirmishes along the way to Earth, but it is likely they simply amassed their fleet at Earth since that gave them the most time to prepare.