Borg

[NecronLord]

Two questions from Dark Frontier.

1) Why is it the borg now need buttons? In their first appearance they simply control the ship by thought alone, now to make it do anything they have to use one of these multi-function wall button-display things.

2) Why does a borg alcove use up thirty megawatts? What does it need that level of power for? When idling no less.

[Rogue 9]

1.) The Trek writers have no sense of continuity at all.

2.) Mr. Data's Malfunctioning Tongue Syndrome.

[NecronLord]

2.) Mr. Data's Malfunctioning Tongue Syndrome.

Nah. That'd be "The Alcove uses a lot of energy, three million terawatts per second." of some such...

[Jon]

B&B totally destroyed the Borg, though they made them uber cool in FC, with a figure, the Queen, often mistaken as a leader but actually just a physical representation of the collective- they lost that by Voyager, when they did portray her as an individual etc etc- 'My drones, Me, I, My collective" are just some of her quotes form the series.

Then they turned them [the Borg] into pussy's who Janeway didn't even flinch at by the end of Voyager. Pathetic.

In TNG, the Borg were actually a cool concept, albeit shit special effects, the idea was fantastic. By Voyager they were just another race to use in an episode of a flagging series.

[wautd]

1) because else starfleet bording parties cant do much when they are in a cube (and they need the deus ex machina technobabble to save the day)

In TNG, the Borg were actually a cool concept, albeit shit special effects, the idea was fantastic

I think the original borg was to "dark" for ST. When i first saw Q who? i was pretty young and they where scary like hell (especially those borg-to-be baby's). I guess they didnt fit in the fluffy ST picture so they made them softer

[Robert Walper]

Two questions from Dark Frontier.

1) Why is it the borg now need buttons? In their first appearance they simply control the ship by thought alone, now to make it do anything they have to use one of these multi-function wall button-display things.

Where, exactly, was it established the Borg control their vessel solely by thoughts alone? I think you're confusing the Borg hive mind aspect with controlling the actual vessel. One example comes to mind is Seven of Nine in STVOY "Scorpion". Janeway and Tuvok suggest they alter course to delay interception by Species 8472, Seven of Nine agrees. She then hesistates(clearly listening to/interacting with the hive mind onboard the cube), and then replies the cube's course and heading have been changed. This might "appear" to be mind control, but in fact is simply actions not being witnessed elsewhere.

Furthermore, it could simply be a matter of certain functions being done manually, and others being "done" mentally. However, in either case, obviously some sort of physical work must be done.

Given the Borg's inclination for redundancy, this could be a measure to insure drones can still operate a Borg vessel, even if the hive mind capability has been damaged. Borg drones disconnected from the hive mind have been shown to still pursue Borg objectives. Thus, they could still control the vessel while attempting to re establish the hive mind.

Come to think of it, lacking the ability to control the Borg vessel without the hive mind strikes me as a rather obvious vulnerability. Disrupt the hive mind, and the ship is rendered uncontrollable. Thankfully, the Borg intelligently prepared for that possibility. "Stupid" Borg my ass!

2) Why does a borg alcove use up thirty megawatts? What does it need that level of power for? When idling no less.

Subspace communications link, supplying drones with energy for personal shielding and energy their implants utilize for the biological aspects of drones, etc. Frankly, we don't know what the alcove is really using the power for, but I have suggested some possible ideas.

On a side note, this would give a lower limit energy production of a Borg cube at 5.37 terawatts of power, and that is solely for the drones onboard. This is based upon the known lower limit crew capacity of a Borg cube numbering at 179 thousand drones, with each drone having a alcove. That was also mentioned in STVOY "Dark Frontier".

My suggested theoritical upper limit of a Borg cube's energy supply for drones is 6.999 thousand terawatts.

[Jon]

This might "appear" to be mind control, but in fact is simply actions not being witnessed elsewhere.

Come on, Machines, collective- they are obviously going to be connected to the vessel, The Queen - 'The Voice' and representation of the Borg as a collective, clearly portrayed this ability in various episodes and FC.

The ONLY reason they would need tangible interfaces is as a back up, like you say, if for some reason the collective link fails, nothing else.

[Robert Walper]

This might "appear" to be mind control, but in fact is simply actions not being witnessed elsewhere.

Come on, Machines, collective- they are obviously going to be connected to the vessel, The Queen - 'The Voice' and representation of the Borg as a collective, clearly portrayed this ability in various episodes and FC.

A Borg hive mind can exist without a vessel, why would a hive mind be needed to control it?

Frankly, I can think of no examples that clearly showed the Borg "controlling" their vessels via their hive mind alone. There has to be an interface. One could use the description I use my "mind" to control my car when driving, but I still need an interface by which to excerise that control. In this case, my hands, arms, legs and feet.

The ONLY reason they would need tangible interfaces is as a back up, like you say, if for some reason the collective link fails, nothing else.

Then perhaps one might need to re evaluate the assumption the Borg typically use their hive mind to control their ships as opposed to normal physical interfaces.

[Jon]

I wouldn't necessarily say a Hive Mind is 'needed' to control the vessels, but considering they have one, I would assume that they primarily do- there would be no need for Manual control except for in emergencies- in which case I accept the presence of them.

The interface is the collective, the will. In the same way the 'tubing' in engineering (E-E) was controlled by them to bring in the queen etc etc - unless you're suggesting a borg stood by and operated some pulleys? Or there was an unseen borg using a remote control to dispath the tubing to collect her when the end was ny.

[NecronLord]

I was reffering to the rather strong implication in Q Who that they control their vessels by a neural connection in the wrist while in their alcoves, with drones only being awakened to preform a specific task. Since then they seem to have abandoned the wrist-link interface.

Come to think of it, lacking the ability to control the Borg vessel without the hive mind strikes me as a rather obvious vulnerability. Disrupt the hive mind, and the ship is rendered uncontrollable. Thankfully, the Borg intelligently prepared for that possibility. "Stupid" Borg my ass!

I said why do they need buttons, not why are the buttons there.

[Ted C]

2) Why does a borg alcove use up thirty megawatts? What does it need that level of power for? When idling no less.

Subspace communications link, supplying drones with energy for personal shielding and energy their implants utilize for the biological aspects of drones, etc. Frankly, we don't know what the alcove is really using the power for, but I have suggested some possible ideas.

On a side note, this would give a lower limit energy production of a Borg cube at 5.37 terawatts of power, and that is solely for the drones onboard.

And that is a massive leap of logic, since you are assuming that since a single Borg alcove has a 30 MW capacity, all of them must be capable of drawing 30 MW simultaneously. I'm not familiar with the particular incident, but that seems like an absurd assumption.

Exact context (i.e. a script excerpt) would help here, but it seems ridiculous for an alcove to be constantly drawing 30 MW even if there's nothing (i.e. no drone) connected to it. The alcove doesn't require constant power to maintain a subspace comlink, since drones normally have such links of their own. They normally supply their biological needs with internal replication implants (according to TNG "I, Borg"), so there's no reason for the alcove to be drawing substantial energy for replication, either (especially if the alcove is unoccupied). Nor is there any call to run power for shielding under normal conditions, and an unoccupied alcove wouldn't be recharging a drone's internal shields. None of your proposed uses for such a high power draw withstand scrutiny Robert, so the 30 MW claim is clearly unsubstantiated. There might be special circumstances under which a 30 MW capacity would be necessary, but there's absolutely no reason to be pulling so much power under "idling" conditions.

[Robert Walper]

Subspace communications link, supplying drones with energy for personal shielding and energy their implants utilize for the biological aspects of drones, etc. Frankly, we don't know what the alcove is really using the power for, but I have suggested some possible ideas.

On a side note, this would give a lower limit energy production of a Borg cube at 5.37 terawatts of power, and that is solely for the drones onboard.

And that is a massive leap of logic, since you are assuming that since a single Borg alcove has a 30 MW capacity, all of them must be capable of drawing 30 MW simultaneously.

I am assuming that Borg alcoves are similar enough in design that their power requirements would also be similar. I would find it quite perplexing to assume that Seven's alcove draws magitudes more power than any other Borg alcove, particularily since it was "idle".

I'm not familiar with the particular incident, but that seems like an absurd assumption.

This is the only evidence of power consumption of a Borg alcove that I'm aware of, therefore we're limited to working solely with it.

Exact context (i.e. a script excerpt) would help here, but it seems ridiculous for an alcove to be constantly drawing 30 MW even if there's nothing (i.e. no drone) connected to it.

Here's the actual quote:

Neelix: "Captain. We've cleared out most of the debris, but before we vapourise it I'd like to melt down the larger fragments, and extract the polytrinic compounds."
Janeway: "Makes sense."
Neelix: "That leaves just one item. Seven of Nine's alcove. It requires a lot of power - over 30 megawatts. Shall I de-activate it?"
Janeway: "No, leave it alone."

As to the the energy requirement being "ridiculas", I would favor the idea we simply do not know what the alcove does that requires this much power. At this point I simply put forth some theories as to what may require this energy level(although you have apparently effectively refuted all of them ).

While I know SD.net's preferred method would be to employ Trek Character Stupidity(TM), I don't subscribe to that conclusion unless there is absolutely no other choice. In this case, I merely submit we really have no idea what the alcove could be doing to require this much power, but it must be doing something.

The alcove doesn't require constant power to maintain a subspace comlink, since drones normally have such links of their own.

There may be hive mind communication differences between a active drone and a regenerating one, but since Seven wasn't regenerating at the time I'd concede that point.

They normally supply their biological needs with internal replication implants (according to TNG "I, Borg"), so there's no reason for the alcove to be drawing substantial energy for replication, either (especially if the alcove is unoccupied).

Conceded.

Nor is there any call to run power for shielding under normal conditions, and an unoccupied alcove wouldn't be recharging a drone's internal shields. None of your proposed uses for such a high power draw withstand scrutiny Robert, so the 30 MW claim is clearly unsubstantiated.

Depends upon how one wishes to interpret Neelix's comment and Janeway's agreeing with it. My conclusion thus far is the alcove does something to require this kind of power consumption, but just because we do not know what that is does not magically make the power consumption disappear.

There might be special circumstances under which a 30 MW capacity would be necessary, but there's absolutely no reason to be pulling so much power under "idling" conditions.

Yet it was, that is undisputeable unless one asserts both Neelix and Janeway were wrong. As I mentioned before, I'm extremely reluctant to employ that conclusion unless given absolutely no choice.

[Ted C]

And that is a massive leap of logic, since you are assuming that since a single Borg alcove has a 30 MW capacity, all of them must be capable of drawing 30 MW simultaneously.

I am assuming that Borg alcoves are similar enough in design that their power requirements would also be similar. I would find it quite perplexing to assume that Seven's alcove draws magitudes more power than any other Borg alcove, particularily since it was "idle".

You completely missed the point. The fact that a single alcove may require up to 30 MW at a time does not mean that all alcoves on a Borg cube will require that much power at once, nor does it mean that a Borg cube is even capable of supplying so much power.

I'm not familiar with the particular incident, but that seems like an absurd assumption.

This is the only evidence of power consumption of a Borg alcove that I'm aware of, therefore we're limited to working solely with it.

Your method is flawed. You are making the foolish assumption (which, we shall see, isn't really supported by the dialog) that even when it isn't in use, a Borg alcove draws enough power to run a small city. You are then assuming that a cube has tens of thousands of such alcoves all drawing that same amount of power constantly, and you have nothing but Neelix's comment to back it up; he's not even a subject matter expert.

Exact context (i.e. a script excerpt) would help here, but it seems ridiculous for an alcove to be constantly drawing 30 MW even if there's nothing (i.e. no drone) connected to it.

Here's the actual quote:

Neelix: "Captain. We've cleared out most of the debris, but before we vapourise it I'd like to melt down the larger fragments, and extract the polytrinic compounds."
Janeway: "Makes sense."
Neelix: "That leaves just one item. Seven of Nine's alcove. It requires a lot of power - over 30 megawatts. Shall I de-activate it?"
Janeway: "No, leave it alone."

As I might have guessed, this comment doesn't do much to establish a constant power draw of 30 MW. You could use it to claim that the alcove has a peak draw of 30 MW, but to assume this little thing is eating enough power to run a modern warship all the time is quite a stretch.

As to the the energy requirement being "ridiculas", I would favor the idea we simply do not know what the alcove does that requires this much power.

Robert, you aren't able to show that it's doing anything. Remember that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". Where's the evidence for this massive energy consumption?

At this point I simply put forth some theories as to what may require this energy level(although you have apparently effectively refuted all of them ).

While I know SD.net's preferred method would be to employ Trek Character Stupidity(TM), I don't subscribe to that conclusion unless there is absolutely no other choice. In this case, I merely submit we really have no idea what the alcove could be doing to require this much power, but it must be doing something.

Actually, I'm starting to think that the Federation uses entirely different standards of measurement than the modern world, since almost every statement that comes out of a Trek character's mouth seems to be inflated by three orders of magnitude. Perhaps they adopted Vulcan standards of measure after WW3 and just stuck their old metric units on them.

None of your proposed uses for such a high power draw withstand scrutiny Robert, so the 30 MW claim is clearly unsubstantiated.

Depends upon how one wishes to interpret Neelix's comment and Janeway's agreeing with it. My conclusion thus far is the alcove does something to require this kind of power consumption, but just because we do not know what that is does not magically make the power consumption disappear.

It may actually use that much power when it's in use, but there's no reason to think it does it all the time. Does an Aegis destroyer use 24 MW of power when it's sitting in port?

EDIT: A modern destroyer actually has four turbines that each generate 24 MW, so the peak generation is more like 100 MW, but I don't think that does too much to bash my point.

[Robert Walper]

You completely missed the point. The fact that a single alcove may require up to 30 MW at a time does not mean that all alcoves on a Borg cube will require that much power at once, nor does it mean that a Borg cube is even capable of supplying so much power.

All of your above stated points are valid. I take it the difference in interpretation is your assertion this must have been a peak power consumption rate and I'm interpreting it as a constant power consumption rate.

Your method is flawed. You are making the foolish assumption (which, we shall see, isn't really supported by the dialog) that even when it isn't in use, a Borg alcove draws enough power to run a small city.

Clearly, Seven's alcove was not in use at the time Neelix made this comment, but then we're not certain from where he initially gathered the information. Perhaps it's possible he picked a reading during Seven of Nine's renegeration cycle while she was communicating with the Borg Queen across interstellar distances. That might account for the massive power requirement.

You are then assuming that a cube has tens of thousands of such alcoves all drawing that same amount of power constantly, and you have nothing but Neelix's comment to back it up; he's not even a subject matter expert.

Conceded.

Neelix: "Captain. We've cleared out most of the debris, but before we vapourise it I'd like to melt down the larger fragments, and extract the polytrinic compounds."
Janeway: "Makes sense."
Neelix: "That leaves just one item. Seven of Nine's alcove. It requires a lot of power - over 30 megawatts. Shall I de-activate it?"
Janeway: "No, leave it alone."

As I might have guessed, this comment doesn't do much to establish a constant power draw of 30 MW. You could use it to claim that the alcove has a peak draw of 30 MW, but to assume this little thing is eating enough power to run a modern warship all the time is quite a stretch.

Admittedly, this is true. Make no mistake, I'm well aware of just how massive a power consumption rate this is.

Robert, you aren't able to show that it's doing anything. Remember that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". Where's the evidence for this massive energy consumption?

Neelix's comment is the evidence by which we're determing power consumption in the first place.

If we are going to overrule his statement, one could argue the alcove wasn't consuming more power than a lightbulb by virtue of it's visual display being the only "observable" energy usage.

Actually, I'm starting to think that the Federation uses entirely different standards of measurement than the modern world, since almost every statement that comes out of a Trek character's mouth seems to be inflated by three orders of magnitude. Perhaps they adopted Vulcan standards of measure after WW3 and just stuck their old metric units on them.

Technically, that's stepping outside of suspension of disbelief, isn't it?

In other words, the stated energy levels are simply too vast to be explained by modern engineering and physics, therefore we may safely modify how we interpret what is being said?

It may actually use that much power when it's in use, but there's no reason to think it does it all the time. Does an Aegis destroyer use 24 MW of power when it's sitting in port?

Of course not.

Perhaps I could submit another theory. Neelix's power consumption reading was retrived from a timeframe when Seven's alcove was allowing her to maintain a highly sophisiticated link to the Borg Collective. Unimatrix Zero perhaps, or her communcation with the Borg Queen? Both instances took place across interstellar distances.

EDIT: A modern destroyer actually has four turbines that each generate 24 MW, so the peak generation is more like 100 MW, but I don't think that does too much to bash my point.

No, it doesn't.

[NecronLord]

It does seem like rather a lot though. You can vape about 80 Kg of human flesh for just under 20 Mj (It's here somewhere... Try archive searching my posts for "80 Kg") That's probably enough to boil most of Seven away. She'd better hope it doesn't malfunction.

[General Zod]

she doesn't necessarily have to be channeling all that power through her body. could be the alcoves power is used mainly to run the alcove itself, while the drone is plugged in, with only a tiny bit actually going to the drone.

[NecronLord]

she doesn't necessarily have to be channeling all that power through her body. could be the alcoves power is used mainly to run the alcove itself, while the drone is plugged in, with only a tiny bit actually going to the drone.

Note the word malfunction there

[General Zod]

why do you think there's so many drones? gotta think redundancy.

[Crazedwraith]

It does seem like rather a lot though. You can vape about 80 Kg of human flesh for just under 20 Mj (It's here somewhere... Try archive searching my posts for "80 Kg") That's probably enough to boil most of Seven away. She'd better hope it doesn't malfunction.

but.......but............Seven's amazing exoskelaton would protect her!

[Ted C]

You completely missed the point. The fact that a single alcove may require up to 30 MW at a time does not mean that all alcoves on a Borg cube will require that much power at once, nor does it mean that a Borg cube is even capable of supplying so much power.

All of your above stated points are valid. I take it the difference in interpretation is your assertion this must have been a peak power consumption rate and I'm interpreting it as a constant power consumption rate.

More or less. It makes no sense for the alcove to be consuming a huge amount of power if it's not doing any work.

Clearly, Seven's alcove was not in use at the time Neelix made this comment, but then we're not certain from where he initially gathered the information. Perhaps it's possible he picked a reading during Seven of Nine's renegeration cycle while she was communicating with the Borg Queen across interstellar distances. That might account for the massive power requirement.

This is a far more plausible explanation.

Robert, you aren't able to show that it's doing anything. Remember that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". Where's the evidence for this massive energy consumption?

Neelix's comment is the evidence by which we're determing power consumption in the first place.

If we are going to overrule his statement, one could argue the alcove wasn't consuming more power than a lightbulb by virtue of it's visual display being the only "observable" energy usage.

You very well could. The problem with quotes from Star Trek characters concerning power usage (and range, for that matter) is that we can consistently refute them with simple observation. If Neelix's statement weren't so radically at odds with the alcove's observed functions, it wouldn't be such a problem.

Actually, I'm starting to think that the Federation uses entirely different standards of measurement than the modern world, since almost every statement that comes out of a Trek character's mouth seems to be inflated by three orders of magnitude. Perhaps they adopted Vulcan standards of measure after WW3 and just stuck their old metric units on them.

Technically, that's stepping outside of suspension of disbelief, isn't it?

It's pure speculation, but it might explain why what ST characters say and what we observe on the screen are so often in disagreement.

In other words, the stated energy levels are simply too vast to be explained by modern engineering and physics, therefore we may safely modify how we interpret what is being said?

It's not that the numbers stated are high; it's the fact that simple observation of regularly refutes ST character claims.

Perhaps I could submit another theory. Neelix's power consumption reading was retrived from a timeframe when Seven's alcove was allowing her to maintain a highly sophisiticated link to the Borg Collective. Unimatrix Zero perhaps, or her communcation with the Borg Queen? Both instances took place across interstellar distances.

As I said before, this is a far more viable theory. Such long range communication might well require substantial power at peak load, and it might even draw power when Seven isn't actually occupying the alcove if it served as a relay between her implants and the Collective while she was still in contact with them. We wouldn't expect it to be drawing so much power once she was no longer communicating with them.

[NecronLord]

but.......but............Seven's amazing exoskelaton would protect her!

If that's a joke about breasts... "Hah hah hah *thwaps Crazedwraith*"

If it's not... "Hah hah hah *thwaps Crazedwraith seriously*"

[Robert Walper]

Another useful discussion, Ted C. Much appreciated.

[Superman]

It's just like the doc on Voyager saying "the Borg don't investigate, they assimilate." Nope, wrong, B & B fucked up. They investigated on "Q Who."

Jon, you're right. The whole concept of having buttons on a Borg cube is fucking retarded. Watch "Q Who." See any buttons? All we see is some sort of central computer core that controls the ship. The drones don't pilot the fucking cubes.

The Borg just became B & B's villain of the week. Thanks B & B. Thanks alot.

[Sarevok]

1) Why is it the borg now need buttons? In their first appearance they simply control the ship by thought alone, now to make it do anything they have to use one of these multi-function wall button-display things.

The in universe explantion might be the Borg underwent some sort of drastic change that reduced the collectives bandwidth. Hence they had to use consoles rather than real time mind mahcine interface to control their ship.

The real explanation woould be that B & B does not care about continuty.

[Sarevok]

why do you think there's so many drones? gotta think redundancy.

According to one Voyger episode a Borg cube needs about 5000 drones to operate. But in later episodes we learn that Borg cubes have around 17900 drones aboard. This is a serious overkill rather than redundancy.