Civilians on Starfleet ships

[Deathstalker]

I am sure it has been brought up before, but I was just reminded of it watching the DS9 marathon. The E-D was built with bringing families aboard, dumb as it may be, but at least it was figured in on the design. Apparantly there were civlians on Sisko's Miranda class ship, and Sisko was pissed at Picard for the Borg ass kicking at Wolf 359. I have no sympathy for Sisko. You bring your wife and kid aboard, you pay your money and take your chances.

[consequences]

Personally, I think that's a classic Trek brainbug, Ent-D had families so every ship had to have families.

[m112880]

Allowing crew memebers to bring their familys on the ships is a good idea. It would help being up moral on long missions. But yea comman sense would be if your on a spaceship there is a risk of them being harmed.

[Dark Primus]

Well many of the ships that took part in the battle of Wolf359 left the civilians at the homebases. It would be stupid not doing so. Apparently the ship Sisko was on probably didn't have the time to drop the families off the ship.

[Major Diarrhia]

Think part of it is the improbability of the Borg invasion even happening. Sisko probably thought that if Picard didn't exist, Q would have never introduced humanity to the Borg, and the Borg would have never come. Plus, Picard had become the Borg's representative to humanity. That would be partially right, except the Borg would have just come later and the Federation would have been left in ruins.

[Lord Pounder]

Sisko's wife, Sarah, was a scientist IIRC. Is it possible she was serving as a civilan counsultant on a mission and the ship was called up at the last minute?

[Crazedwraith]

Sisko's wife, Sarah, was a scientist IIRC. Is it possible she was serving as a civilan counsultant on a mission and the ship was called up at the last minute?

Sisko's wife was called jennifer IIRC.

Is mother was called Sarah

[Sarevok]

Sisko's wife, Sarah, was a scientist IIRC. Is it possible she was serving as a civilan counsultant on a mission and the ship was called up at the last minute?

Sisko's wife was called jennifer IIRC.

Is mother was called Sarah

Correct. Sisko's wife was indeed called Jennifer.

[Patrick Degan]

Allowing crew memebers to bring their familys on the ships is a good idea. It would help being up moral on long missions. But yea comman sense would be if your on a spaceship there is a risk of them being harmed.

No, it is a manifestly stupid idea. Civilians aboard a warship are baggage; they contribute nothing to the skills-base necessary for maintaining the ship's operational readiness, and in a combat situation concern for one's loved-ones on board can fatally hamper combat efficency, because a crewman's attention would not be on the fight he and his ship are in the middle of.

The example of Benjamin Sisko is illustrative. At Wolf 359, when the Saratoga's captain was killed, Sisko was left as the surviving senior officer and, hence, the acting-captain. But in the middle of his ship's crisis, he abandoned his post to look after his wife and son who should never have been aboard in the first place instead of seeing to his crew. Sisko should have been court-martialed for deserting his command, and the headquarters genius who approved the idea of civilians aboard warships prosecuted for depraved indifference to human life. Probably the only mitigation in Sisko's case was that he was put in a position he should never have been placed in to begin with.

And let's not have any of this bullshit about how Starfleet isn't military —its ships are heavily armed and it fights the Federation's wars. That makes the service military by definition. The purpose of the fleet is to be sent into harm's way when necessary.

The crew morale argument doesn't obtain either; that's the entire purpose of training and discipline, as well as the appointment of competent officers in command. The entire history of warfare and military service has borne this truth out and there's no reason to expect that it would not hold true in a space service. And, in case anybody's noticed, Capt. Kirk never had morale problems in his crew —who didn't have their families along for that five-year ride. Indeed, the very presence of families could destroy morale at a critical moment when the ship is sent into a combat zone (again, see Benjamin Sisko).

Deliberately placing civilians in harm's way is nothing less that criminal irresponsibility, and reflects a leadership which is either too stupid to understand the hazards of deep space, or evil enough to use civilians as either human shields or pawns in a tripwire doctrine which makes an attack upon any vessel in the service (and its civilians) an automatic act of war.

[Gandalf]

Allowing crew memebers to bring their familys on the ships is a good idea. It would help being up moral on long missions. But yea comman sense would be if your on a spaceship there is a risk of them being harmed.

No, it is a manifestly stupid idea. Civilians aboard a warship are baggage; they contribute nothing to the skills-base necessary for maintaining the ship's operational readiness, and in a combat situation concern for one's loved-ones on board can fatally hamper combat efficency, because a crewman's attention would not be on the fight he and his ship are in the middle of.

Federation ships aren't warships though. Most of them are just supposed to fly about looking at 'anomaly of the week.' Which is usually a safe thing.

How often do Wolf 359 events come along? Not that often. From what has been seen, the era between ST6 and TNG is fairly peaceful.

[Sarevok]

Allowing crew memebers to bring their familys on the ships is a good idea. It would help being up moral on long missions. But yea comman sense would be if your on a spaceship there is a risk of them being harmed.

No, it is a manifestly stupid idea. Civilians aboard a warship are baggage; they contribute nothing to the skills-base necessary for maintaining the ship's operational readiness, and in a combat situation concern for one's loved-ones on board can fatally hamper combat efficency, because a crewman's attention would not be on the fight he and his ship are in the middle of.

Federation ships aren't warships though. Most of them are just supposed to fly about looking at 'anomaly of the week.' Which is usually a safe thing.

How often do Wolf 359 events come along? Not that often. From what has been seen, the era between ST6 and TNG is fairly peaceful.

The dominion war changed all that though.

[Gandalf]

Federation ships aren't warships though. Most of them are just supposed to fly about looking at 'anomaly of the week.' Which is usually a safe thing.

How often do Wolf 359 events come along? Not that often. From what has been seen, the era between ST6 and TNG is fairly peaceful.

The dominion war changed all that though.

Of that I am aware, I meant beforehand.

[Patrick Degan]

Allowing crew memebers to bring their familys on the ships is a good idea. It would help being up moral on long missions. But yea comman sense would be if your on a spaceship there is a risk of them being harmed.

No, it is a manifestly stupid idea. Civilians aboard a warship are baggage; they contribute nothing to the skills-base necessary for maintaining the ship's operational readiness, and in a combat situation concern for one's loved-ones on board can fatally hamper combat efficency, because a crewman's attention would not be on the fight he and his ship are in the middle of.

Federation ships aren't warships though. Most of them are just supposed to fly about looking at 'anomaly of the week.' Which is usually a safe thing.

Riiight... Which is why they're armed with multiple phaser banks, 200+ photon torpedoes, and a high-capacity deflector shield grid.

How often do Wolf 359 events come along? Not that often. From what has been seen, the era between ST6 and TNG is fairly peaceful.

How often do World War II events come along? Not that often, but that doesn't prevent the United States from maintaining a powerful warfleet for six-plus decades after the last such event. How often such events may occur is immaterial. They could occur any time —which is the entire reason for maintaining a warfleet in the first place. Picard may be idiotic enough to believe the cant that "Starfleet isn't a military organisation", but the very fact of the Enterprise's heavy armament and that of every major starship class in the fleet is an indicator that somebody in the Federation is not that stupid; the overall imbecility of Federation policy notwithstanding.

[Darth Wong]

Federation ships aren't warships though. Most of them are just supposed to fly about looking at 'anomaly of the week.' Which is usually a safe thing.

How many real-life marine non-military science research vessels carry nuclear weapons, Phalanx CIWS, missiles, and naval artillery?

How often do Wolf 359 events come along? Not that often. From what has been seen, the era between ST6 and TNG is fairly peaceful.

Every ship at Wolf 359 had ample warning to get rid of their civilians. Worse-case scenario: they could simply launch them in escape pods and send a message to Starfleet about their location before heading to the rendezvous point. The presence of civilians on a military vessel is inexcusable, and the presence of civilians on a military vessel which had many hours of forewarning that it would engage in battle with a technologically superior enemy is beyond inexcusable.

[Gandalf]

Federation ships aren't warships though. Most of them are just supposed to fly about looking at 'anomaly of the week.' Which is usually a safe thing.

How many real-life marine non-military science research vessels carry nuclear weapons, Phalanx CIWS, missiles, and naval artillery?

Isn't there a difference between carrying armaments and being a warship?

How often do Wolf 359 events come along? Not that often. From what has been seen, the era between ST6 and TNG is fairly peaceful.

Every ship at Wolf 359 had ample warning to get rid of their civilians. Worse-case scenario: they could simply launch them in escape pods and send a message to Starfleet about their location before heading to the rendezvous point. The presence of civilians on a military vessel is inexcusable, and the presence of civilians on a military vessel which had many hours of forewarning that it would engage in battle with a technologically superior enemy is beyond inexcusable.

I know Wolf 359 was a disaster caused by poor planning. My point was that these situations come along somewhat rarely. So if Starfleet evacuates it's families in a competent manner when the need arises all should be well.
When this policy was implemented (Somewhere between ST6 and TNG) the Federation was at peace, with minimal need for armaments. There were no real enemies left, Q states something along these lines in 'Q Who".

[Xon]

Isn't there a difference between carrying armaments and being a warship?

Sure. The ability to use them. Otherwise its just cargo

No matter how you cut it, the Federation ships are military by any reasonable definiton.

[Patrick Degan]

I know Wolf 359 was a disaster caused by poor planning. My point was that these situations come along somewhat rarely. So if Starfleet evacuates it's families in a competent manner when the need arises all should be well.

When this policy was implemented (Somewhere between ST6 and TNG) the Federation was at peace, with minimal need for armaments. There were no real enemies left, Q states something along these lines in 'Q Who".

To reiterate the point: how often such events may occur is immaterial. They could occur at any time —which is the entire reason for maintaining a warfleet in the first place.

[General Zod]

I know Wolf 359 was a disaster caused by poor planning. My point was that these situations come along somewhat rarely. So if Starfleet evacuates it's families in a competent manner when the need arises all should be well.
When this policy was implemented (Somewhere between ST6 and TNG) the Federation was at peace, with minimal need for armaments. There were no real enemies left, Q states something along these lines in 'Q Who".

in most instances that there's been trouble on board the Enterprise there wasn't enough time to bother evacuating the civilian personnel.

at wolf 359, they had plenty of warning time to make sure civilian casualties would be minimal. they didn't have to take the risk of civilians being present there.

[Ravenwing]

Allowing crew memebers to bring their familys on the ships is a good idea. It would help being up moral on long missions. But yea comman sense would be if your on a spaceship there is a risk of them being harmed.

No, it is a manifestly stupid idea. Civilians aboard a warship are baggage; they contribute nothing to the skills-base necessary for maintaining the ship's operational readiness, and in a combat situation concern for one's loved-ones on board can fatally hamper combat efficency, because a crewman's attention would not be on the fight he and his ship are in the middle of.

although my very small amount of treck knowelage probably means ill end up being flamed for posting on the treck boards at all, i remember there being a number of civillians on board the enterpriseD. When it crashed in the Generations movie, it took a number of officers to get them to safety that would indeed have sapped its manpower and caused a, lot of panic but point remains that it wouls be impossible to stick a man away from his family for months at a time, especially if both parents were working on different ships and say there were no relatives they could stay with etc etc. so having civillians on board could be virtually impossible for any length of time unless they were preparing for an actual war or something

[Kamakazie Sith]

Allowing crew memebers to bring their familys on the ships is a good idea. It would help being up moral on long missions. But yea comman sense would be if your on a spaceship there is a risk of them being harmed.

No, it is a manifestly stupid idea. Civilians aboard a warship are baggage; they contribute nothing to the skills-base necessary for maintaining the ship's operational readiness, and in a combat situation concern for one's loved-ones on board can fatally hamper combat efficency, because a crewman's attention would not be on the fight he and his ship are in the middle of.

although my very small amount of treck knowelage probably means ill end up being flamed for posting on the treck boards at all, i remember there being a number of civillians on board the enterpriseD. When it crashed in the Generations movie, it took a number of officers to get them to safety that would indeed have sapped its manpower and caused a, lot of panic but point remains that it wouls be impossible to stick a man away from his family for months at a time, especially if both parents were working on different ships and say there were no relatives they could stay with etc etc. so having civillians on board could be virtually impossible for any length of time unless they were preparing for an actual war or something

SSBN crews stay out at sea for six months IIRC. Thus it would not be impossible to stick a man away from his family for months at a time.

Also, did you know it is spelled Star Trek?

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Are the Hydrans anything like the starfish-headed Great Old Ones? Because if they are, I so want to see them in the ST universe.

Otherwise I'll go with the mini-Godzilla Gorn. Nothing beats a man in a rubber suit!

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Whoops, that last post is in the wrong thread. Please ignore it.

[Ravenwing]

Also, did you know it is spelled Star Trek?

sorry just to clear that up. on another forum i post in its a sort of rip-off. one person who used to be on the boards always stated they knew everything and anything about Trek and knew nothing so members started spelling it with the C cause she always did and we wanted to make she never lived it down. So sorry about the misunderstanding, its kinda a habit now.

[Super-Gagme]

Wasn't the Enterprise in TOS on a 5 year mission? That is a long time, considering the deployable time for a Galaxy class, they could have very long missions, imagine 5 years without seeing your wife or kid. It just wouldn't work. And before you suggest they make routine visits home, how can they make any progress exploring for 5 years when they must move ALL the way back along the territory covered? Okay I never watched much TNG (yeah it sucked ass) but they explored through most of it right?

[General Zod]

seeing there's a good 7 seasons worth of TNG, and they didn't spend too much time on earth it's safe to say they spent a good deal of time away from the main systems.