StarDestroyer.Net BBS

I recently wathced ENT's "Regneration"and was thinking about the supspace message at the end, it was said it would take aroun two (or was it three?) hundred years until it got there so the borg would arrive a Picard's time.
(I think "regeneration" was some quite giid ret-coning myself, although it doesn'r explain my data did'nt rcognise to drones when he saw them in "q who" it does explian why the Hansens whent out to find them in the delta quad before picards "1st contact with the borg")

Anyhoo as i was saying:What if Picard and co were a little slower in getting the beacon offline and the borg got the message (say FC stays the same as it did but the beacon was on for a few minutes before Worf's "assimilate this" line) This would mean the message was sebt offf about 80 years before ENT, and the borg would arrive about 80 years before "Q Who" which is about the time of the TOS moives isn't it? Or at least at the time of the E-B, so who would this early federation fare against a cube?

P.S i know there are holes in the premise but jus consider the sceanrio, its not like modern trek isn't like the swiss cheese of plots anyway.


EDIT: In summary for those who can't figure out "that tortured mess some might dubiously call an opening post" (thanx Walper) I am indeed asking "What would happen if a BoBW cube appeared up in the movie era instead of the TNG era?"

Crazedwraith wrote:I recently wathced ENT's "Regneration"and was thinking about the supspace message at the end, it was said it would take aroun two (or was it three?) hundred years until it got there so the borg would arrive a Picard's time.
(I think "regeneration" was some quite giid ret-coning myself, although it doesn'r explain my data did'nt rcognise to drones when he saw them in "q who" it does explian why the Hansens whent out to find them in the delta quad before picards "1st contact with the borg")

Anyhoo as i was saying:What if Picard and co were a little slower in getting the beacon offline and the borg got the message (say FC stays the same as it did but the beacon was on for a few minutes before Worf's "assimilate this" line) This would mean the message was sebt offf about 80 years before ENT, and the borg would arrive about 80 years before "Q Who" which is about the time of the TOS moives isn't it? Or at least at the time of the E-B, so who would this early federation fare against a cube?

Sifting very carefully through that tortured mess some might dubiously call an opening post, I gathered your question is "How would the Kirk/Enterprise-B era deal with a Borg assault like the one from 'Best of Both Worlds' ".

The answer seems simple enough. The Federation would be assimilated. There is no Commander Data and Locutus interface to save them, although the idea of a "I am Tiberious of Borg" sounds rather interesting.

Considering that many of the ships used against the borg at the Battle of Wolf359 were from the Enterprise-B era anyway, I would say the 23rd century Federation would get spanked and assimilated in record time.

Even a 24th century Federation fleet with several vessels designed with the borg in mind couldn't keep a single cube away from earth or stop it in a conventional battle.

Borg > 23rd century feds.

Sidious wrote:Considering that many of the ships used against the borg at the Battle of Wolf359 were from the Enterprise-B era anyway, I would say the 23rd century Federation would get spanked and assimilated in record time.

Even a 24th century Federation fleet with several vessels designed with the borg in mind couldn't keep a single cube away from earth or stop it in a conventional battle.

Borg > 23rd century feds.

You forget the 23rd century Feds secret weapon: Kirk!

Is everyone suggesting that despite all the assimalating they have done the Borg haven't improved in the last century? the 24th cent borg are no better than the 23 cent borg. Or to put it another way despite the fact that the Feds are lower tech so are the Borg they might not even have hyperwarp or whatever its called. the fact that the borg queen contacts them doesn't tell us anything, she may not have been able to thing of anything better to do.

The Borg may be in a technological stasis. Since they dont research new technologies the only way their technology advances is through assimilation. This means the pace of Borg advance is very slow.

Or they may not be. We really don't know.

Actualy to make a point, the Interplexing Becon they were making from the Enterprise-E was a far more advanced communications system, it would hae linked the E-E INTO the current Hive Mind, realtime. It wouldn't have taken 80 years, it would have been instant.

The message sent in Regeneration was a normal subspace message that took ages.

Oh and that was another of the things that annoyed me about Regeneration. The Drones nanoprobes were apparently upto the take of completly rebuilding the inside of their stolen Cargo ship into super advanced Borg tech....but they were unable to build a Transwarp coil? Or even a single Capital ship weapon?

Of course given that a Capital weapon would saw the E-NX in half without so much as a by your leave, it'd be a bad thing.....then again....

Chris OFarrell wrote:Oh and that was another of the things that annoyed me about Regeneration. The Drones nanoprobes were apparently upto the take of completly rebuilding the inside of their stolen Cargo ship into super advanced Borg tech....but they were unable to build a Transwarp coil? Or even a single Capital ship weapon?

One possibility, is that the power simply wasn't there. The engines might be more efficient, the weapons better at damage, but the overall cargo ship simply doesn't have the power needed for heavier (Capital) weapons. Now, that might have been a nice suprise there.

AKA

"It's only a cargo ship, nothing to worry about-"

BAM!

"Red Alert!"

So you might have more efficient weapons, likely even better designed weapons, but the Borg don't have the power to fire proper weapons.

Besides, if you accept Voyager, a transwarp coil has to be specially made by the Borg, replicating it doesn't work. So the cargo ship didn't have the machines to build the machines to build a TW coil.

Chris OFarrell wrote:Actualy to make a point, the Interplexing Becon they were making from the Enterprise-E was a far more advanced communications system, it would hae linked the E-E INTO the current Hive Mind, realtime. It wouldn't have taken 80 years, it would have been instant.

The message sent in Regeneration was a normal subspace message that took ages.

*whistles*
I knew that. Remember when I said there were holes in the idea? Thats one of them, now be a good boy and shut about them?

Howedar wrote:Or they may not be. We really don't know.

I think it is safe to say that the Borg do not research new technologies. In "Scorpion" the entire Borg collective was unable to do the simple research Voygers EMH did to come up with an anti-species 8472 weapon.

You have to wonder if Starfleet (TOS/Movie) era, in the middle of a massive arms race with the Klingons and Romulans, would have had enough ships to stop the borg cube by simplying ramming it.

Off course, Kirk could just seduce the Queen....

evilcat4000 wrote:I think it is safe to say that the Borg do not research new technologies. In "Scorpion" the entire Borg collective was unable to do the simple research Voygers EMH did to come up with an anti-species 8472 weapon.

We know the Borg advance primarily be asssimilation rather than research. Their inability to research therefore has little bearing on their advances or lack thereof over those 80 years.

Howedar wrote:

evilcat4000 wrote:I think it is safe to say that the Borg do not research new technologies. In "Scorpion" the entire Borg collective was unable to do the simple research Voygers EMH did to come up with an anti-species 8472 weapon.

We know the Borg advance primarily be asssimilation rather than research. Their inability to research therefore has little bearing on their advances or lack thereof over those 80 years.

voyager wound up making the borg even more stupid. though apparently they've done research in the past, as 7 of 9 had indicated that they were studying the omega particle, due to their belief it was representative of perfection in action.

evilcat4000 wrote:

Howedar wrote:Or they may not be. We really don't know.

I think it is safe to say that the Borg do not research new technologies. In "Scorpion" the entire Borg collective was unable to do the simple research Voygers EMH did to come up with an anti-species 8472 weapon.

And you have evidence the Borg had access to the bio material the Doctor did? The Borg had no failing in this part, they simply lacked the time and resources the Doctor had.

Darth_Zod wrote:

Howedar wrote:

evilcat4000 wrote:I think it is safe to say that the Borg do not research new technologies. In "Scorpion" the entire Borg collective was unable to do the simple research Voygers EMH did to come up with an anti-species 8472 weapon.

We know the Borg advance primarily be asssimilation rather than research. Their inability to research therefore has little bearing on their advances or lack thereof over those 80 years.

voyager wound up making the borg even more stupid.

Where?

Robert Walper wrote:

evilcat4000 wrote:

Howedar wrote:Or they may not be. We really don't know.

I think it is safe to say that the Borg do not research new technologies. In "Scorpion" the entire Borg collective was unable to do the simple research Voygers EMH did to come up with an anti-species 8472 weapon.

And you have evidence the Borg had access to the bio material the Doctor did? The Borg had no failing in this part, they simply lacked the time and resources the Doctor had.

What 15 minutes and asick bay? they could get samples of 8472 biology for the drones physically attacked. then again I suppose Nanoprobes would be hard to get.

Robert Walper wrote: And you have evidence the Borg had access to the bio material the Doctor did? The Borg had no failing in this part, they simply lacked the time and resources the Doctor had.

Why wouldn't they have access? We know that they've had drones slaughtered. Simply go back to a wreck nd collect some of the matter that would be left.

MarkIX wrote:

Robert Walper wrote: And you have evidence the Borg had access to the bio material the Doctor did? The Borg had no failing in this part, they simply lacked the time and resources the Doctor had.

What 15 minutes and asick bay?

The Doctor did his work over several hours. With a functioning work lab and bio material to work with. Something the Borg didn't have together at any one time.

they could get samples of 8472 biology for the drones physically attacked.

Too bad that when drones are physically attacked, their ship has already been destroyed and fragmented by enemy fire, and the drones are in disorder and confused.. Rules out the working science lab, a requirement for doing what the Doctor did.

then again I suppose Nanoprobes would be hard to get.

The Borg had plenty of nanoprobes, and the means to modify them. But they had no access to Species 8472 bio material and a lab from which to analyse it unhindered. Unless you have evidence to the contrary?

Sharp-kun wrote:

Robert Walper wrote: And you have evidence the Borg had access to the bio material the Doctor did? The Borg had no failing in this part, they simply lacked the time and resources the Doctor had.

Why wouldn't they have access? We know that they've had drones slaughtered.

Yes, after their ships were blown into fragments by enemy bioships. Pretty much rules out the possibility of a working lab, not to mention the said drones being slaughtered were confused and disorganized after the destruction of their vessel.

Simply go back to a wreck nd collect some of the matter that would be left.

The Borg actively avoided space under Species 8472 control. Hence, the "Nothwest passage" Voyager made a attempt to enter.

It's kinda hard to gather a sample of the enemy if one of their relatively tiny ships can single handedly obliterate an armada of fifteen of your largest warships and sustain only minor injuries in return.

Robert Walper wrote: The Borg actively avoided space under Species 8472 control. Hence, the "Nothwest passage" Voyager made a attempt to enter.

It's kinda hard to gather a sample of the enemy if one of their relatively tiny ships can single handedly obliterate an armada of fifteen of your largest warships and sustain only minor injuries in return.

and all borg vessels that were attacked were in the Northwest passage?

Sharp-kun wrote:

Robert Walper wrote: The Borg actively avoided space under Species 8472 control. Hence, the "Nothwest passage" Voyager made a attempt to enter.

It's kinda hard to gather a sample of the enemy if one of their relatively tiny ships can single handedly obliterate an armada of fifteen of your largest warships and sustain only minor injuries in return.

and all borg vessels that were attacked were in the Northwest passage?

From all accounts, yes.

Just a nitpick, people screaming "The borg are stupid..they could've researched!" How likely are you to research some bio material when your ship is falling apart around you? The borg for the most part were regenerating their ships because they were blown to pieces.

Robert Walper wrote:

Darth_Zod wrote:

Howedar wrote:We know the Borg advance primarily be asssimilation rather than research. Their inability to research therefore has little bearing on their advances or lack thereof over those 80 years.

voyager wound up making the borg even more stupid.

Where?

actually i was referring to the series itself seeming to dumb them down from how they were presented in TNG.

Laird wrote:Just a nitpick, people screaming "The borg are stupid..they could've researched!" How likely are you to research some bio material when your ship is falling apart around you? The borg for the most part were regenerating their ships because they were blown to pieces.

Actually, given the extent of the damage of the Borg ships(fragmented), even I'd hesitate to suggest they could have repaired them. Most of the Borg were malfunctioning anyhow.

What most people don't seem to realize is that the Borg did not have the time or bio material to work with in a controlled enviroment. Just where are they going to get the bio material from? Just one relatively tiny bioship can obliterate a fleet of fifteen of their top end vessels, and Species 8472 members were actively shown going around killing Borg drones with ease.