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RSA's new ground weapons page provides one potentially useful tidbit of information. According to him, the phaser rifle that Geordi and Data were testing in "The Mind's Eye" fired continously for 50 seconds, draining its battery at a rate of 1.05 MW. This would give it's battery a capacity of 52.5 MJ.

Let's assume that a typical shot on "kill" delivers about 3000 J of energy to the target (making it comparable to a modern rifle). The standard efficiency rating of 86.5% means that the battery will release almost 3500 J of energy every time it fires.

Assuming all of these statements to be accurate, a Type III phaser rifle would have 15,000 or more shots in its magazine, which should sustain a foot soldier for quite a while. This huge "ammunition" capacity may explain why there's no obvious indication of a "reloading" mechanism; the designers simply felt that the user would never run out of shots in a combat situation, so there was no need to provide a means of replacing the power supply. They could therefore presumably save resources by making it a sealed unit with some kind of recharging port instead of a replaceable magazine.

Comments? Glaring problems?

DS9 Siege of ARwhatever showed that powerpacks for the Type-3 do infact exist. However I was under the impression that the shots fired in DS9 are more powerful then normal because the Federation wanted to put down their enemies without worrying about them getting back up. Its also possible that after sustained combat many of the riles were not opperating at peak efficency and were using up their power faster then normal.

That said, no one was forced to reload in the end battle.

If a single clip holds tens of thousands of shots, it seems odd that they would not be hosing down the Jem'Hadar with automatic fire as they came pouring around the corner.

Darth Wong wrote:If a single clip holds tens of thousands of shots, it seems odd that they would not be hosing down the Jem'Hadar with automatic fire as they came pouring around the corner.

Overheating perhaps?

I never saw that episode, but from what I have seen, only the pulse versions of the rifle come even close to being able to put out a rate of fire equivalent to full-auto. Unless you mean firing one continuous beam and shifting from target to target.

Thag wrote:I never saw that episode, but from what I have seen, only the pulse versions of the rifle come even close to being able to put out a rate of fire equivalent to full-auto. Unless you mean firing one continuous beam and shifting from target to target.

The Klingon hand held disruptor demonstrated the continuous beam in STVI.

Kamakazie Sith wrote:

Darth Wong wrote: If a single clip holds tens of thousands of shots, it seems odd that they would not be hosing down the Jem'Hadar with automatic fire as they came pouring around the corner.

Overheating perhaps?

Very probably so. A problem with ANY automatic weapon-- one of the problems with early machine guns was them overheating and "cooking off" rounds. They countered that with water jackets for the most part, or by putting in mechanical restrictions upon the rate of fire (I think).

Gatling-type guns, which fire much faster, avoid this issue by having exposed barrels, rotating and the fact that each barrel has at least a few nanoseconds to cool before it fires again, instead of firing over and over again. That said, even Gatlings have problems with overheating-- the A-10 Thunderbolt can only fire a short burst before the pilot has to take his fingers off the trigger; otherwise it jams from heating up.

Likewise, even Star Wars has coolers for its HMG's and even LMG's like the T-21; the latter operates as a heavy blaster rifle as its default, and I believe it can only operate as a LMG if it's hooked up to a cooling generator. the E-Web has to be hooked up to a generator before it can operate, not only for power but also cooling as well.

Tactically speaking, having large ammuntion capacities does make plenty of sense-- cops and soldiers don't train on how to reload fast for nothing, after all. Having 15,000 shots would certainly simplify a redshirt's job, especially considering their lousy accuracy... *me remembers Vietnam-era "wall of fire" tactic with M-16's*

I'll add sort of a side point.

A phaser being set to overload was SUPPOSED to be a VERY bad thing. That episode with the super solider who ran all oer hte Enterprise setting phasers to overload, when Worf finds one and shouts to seal the Deck, it was supposed to be a big threat. They were even planing to have the phaser that did explode blow out a large chunk of the Enterprises hull, similar to how that Deck blew out on Voyager in Year Of Hell.

It was unfortunantly cut out due to budget constraints and we were left with an amazingly lame explosion, less then what a phaser usualy does.

Darth Wong wrote:If a single clip holds tens of thousands of shots, it seems odd that they would not be hosing down the Jem'Hadar with automatic fire as they came pouring around the corner.

Assuming that each shot carries 3000 J, the weapon has to dump nearly 500 J of waste heat every time it fires due to inefficiency. I think that would put a damper on automatic fire.

Chris OFarrell wrote: They were even planing to have the phaser that did explode blow out a large chunk of the Enterprises hull, similar to how that Deck blew out on Voyager in Year Of Hell. It was unfortunantly cut out due to budget constraints and we were left with an amazingly lame explosion

Once again, an episode of TNG that could have been one of my favourites...the only reason I like Voyager was because they at least had their ship get totaled once in a while, even if it was fixed because of a temporal something or other. DS9 and it's war with the dominion was my favourite series because they actually showed some carnage...oh well.

Alyeska wrote:DS9 Siege of ARwhatever showed that powerpacks for the Type-3 do infact exist. However I was under the impression that the shots fired in DS9 are more powerful then normal because the Federation wanted to put down their enemies without worrying about them getting back up. Its also possible that after sustained combat many of the riles were not opperating at peak efficency and were using up their power faster then normal.

That said, no one was forced to reload in the end battle.

It was siege of AR-558.

Chris OFarrell wrote:A phaser being set to overload was SUPPOSED to be a VERY bad thing.

A 53 MJ power supply would be comparable to 13 kg of TNT, so a full phaser rifle set to overload certainly could be very dangerous.

Chris OFarrell wrote:That episode with the super solider who ran all oer hte Enterprise setting phasers to overload,

..."The Hunted", I presume...

Chris OFarrell wrote:when Worf finds one and shouts to seal the Deck, it was supposed to be a big threat. They were even planing to have the phaser that did explode blow out a large chunk of the Enterprises hull, similar to how that Deck blew out on Voyager in Year Of Hell.

It was unfortunantly cut out due to budget constraints and we were left with an amazingly lame explosion, less then what a phaser usualy does.

As noted, a fully-charged phaser set to overload would be quite dangerous, but if the charge is pretty low, the explosion of the power supply will be correspondingly underwhelming. Worf would have no way of knowing for sure how much charge the stolen phaser contained, so it would be prudent to assume the worst and act accordingly.

Yes, it was "The Hunted".

Ted C wrote:Let's assume that a typical shot on "kill" delivers about 3000 J of energy to the target (making it comparable to a modern rifle). The standard efficiency rating of 86.5% means that the battery will release almost 3500 J of energy every time it fires.

Just one small question. Where did this efficiency rating come from? The "Mind's Eye"? Just curious.

Comments? Glaring problems?

Congratulations, you found an advantage for Trek!

There's a small problem with that inefficiency rating. When they are firing on the FULL power, that's about a megawatt, of which about 140kW is inefficiency and released uselessly, presumably as heat. If they have a problem handling 500J of waste heat, how are they going to deal with 140kW (140,000J EVERY SECOND?)

I'm doubt the man holding the phaser would survive that kind of waste heat being released around him.

There's a small problem with that inefficiency rating. When they are firing on the FULL power, that's about a megawatt, of which about 140kW is inefficiency and released uselessly, presumably as heat. If they have a problem handling 500J of waste heat, how are they going to deal with 140kW (140,000J EVERY SECOND?)

Perhaps the waste heat is dumped in to subspace. I know it sounds like technobabble but there is no other way a phaser could be so powerful without burning the user.

I realize that it violates multiple laws of physics, but do phasers generate any waste heat at all? I can remember two episodes right now from TNG, "The Arsenal of Freedom" and "Too Short a Season", where they had hand units firing prolonged, continous beams at fairly high settings, witout any adverse effects for the shooters or the weapons themselves.

Thag wrote:I realize that it violates multiple laws of physics, but do phasers generate any waste heat at all? I can remember two episodes right now from TNG, "The Arsenal of Freedom" and "Too Short a Season", where they had hand units firing prolonged, continous beams at fairly high settings, witout any adverse effects for the shooters or the weapons themselves.

They probably do, but I doubt they can have that kind of inefficiency rating and still not hurt their firers. Inefficiency is a part of science. That efficiency rating, which we hadn't even figured out where it came from, is uttered by a character. As usual, that means he could be wrong

Phasers never heat up, they must have some way of getting rid of the heat. Couldn't they use the waste heat to further excite the particle stream and get rid of it that way? Maybe it turns the waste heat back into energy? Or maybe the overload ability is a function of the waste heat system.

Maybe phasers store waste heat and release it at a manageable rate. That would mean overload is the phaser working at 0% efficiency, turning all of its energy into heat, and overcoming it's heat disipation system.

Other note: The Jem'Hadar "uniform also includes energy absorbing pads that can defeat a Starfleet Level 3 containment field". It could be that these pads also protect against low level particle weapons. That would mean a normal kill shot wouldn't be effective, upping the needed power. Then there is the Jem'Hadar natural hardiness to consider, a normal kill shot may not work even without armor that may or may not effect kill shots.

In Enterprise, the crew had to up the phase pistol output to I think 10MJ. That may be wrong, some one calced it to be half a stick of dynamites worth of energy. Those big pulse shots in First Contact are most likely more powrfull than the normal beam shots and small rapid pulses in Nemesis.

evilcat4000 wrote:

There's a small problem with that inefficiency rating. When they are firing on the FULL power, that's about a megawatt, of which about 140kW is inefficiency and released uselessly, presumably as heat. If they have a problem handling 500J of waste heat, how are they going to deal with 140kW (140,000J EVERY SECOND?)

Perhaps the waste heat is dumped in to subspace. I know it sounds like technobabble but there is no other way a phaser could be so powerful without burning the user.

perhaps some of the energy is being lost as light off of the nadion particles? That would explain the glowey beam deal.

Major Diarrhia wrote: In Enterprise, the crew had to up the phase pistol output to I think 10MJ. That may be wrong, some one calced it to be half a stick of dynamites worth of energy. Those big pulse shots in First Contact are most likely more powrfull than the normal beam shots and small rapid pulses in Nemesis.

I can confirm that the phase pistol was overloaded to megajoules range. Interstingly enough, the phase pistol needed a few seconds to recharge itself, but was good for several shots. Possibly, ST weapons have a much higher density power cell and a capacitor system to hold the energy for firing.

Matt Huang wrote:perhaps some of the energy is being lost as light off of the nadion particles? That would explain the glowey beam deal.

140,000kW of LIGHT (or even a useful fraction thereof)? The light from the beam would fill the room and blind all the cameras trying to take pictures of it, as well as our eyes.

Thag wrote:I realize that it violates multiple laws of physics, but do phasers generate any waste heat at all? I can remember two episodes right now from TNG, "The Arsenal of Freedom" and "Too Short a Season", where they had hand units firing prolonged, continous beams at fairly high settings, witout any adverse effects for the shooters or the weapons themselves.

In 'The Adversary', Eddington and Odo fire a phaser beam down Jeffries Tubes. It heats up the air, enough to make Eddington sweat.

It should be noted that that was a modified beam, and those modifications seem to be the cause of the heat.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:

Ted C wrote:Let's assume that a typical shot on "kill" delivers about 3000 J of energy to the target (making it comparable to a modern rifle). The standard efficiency rating of 86.5% means that the battery will release almost 3500 J of energy every time it fires.

Just one small question. Where did this efficiency rating come from? The "Mind's Eye"? Just curious.

Exactly.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Congratulations, you found an advantage for Trek!

Assuming that my estimages of energy use per shot are correct, the Type III phaser rifle certainly does have a very generous supply of ammunition. Pistol-style phasers my have considerably smaller energy reserves, of course.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:There's a small problem with that inefficiency rating. When they are firing on the FULL power, that's about a megawatt, of which about 140kW is inefficiency and released uselessly, presumably as heat. If they have a problem handling 500J of waste heat, how are they going to deal with 140kW (140,000J EVERY SECOND?)

I'm doubt the man holding the phaser would survive that kind of waste heat being released around him.

Indeed, you probably have to enter some kind of special over-ride code to bring the weapon up to that power level. As noted in Mike's Canon Database, such a high setting probably isn't available for field use due to the danger to the user, but cranking it up that high for their test would make minor variations from normal phaser performance easier to spot, enabling them to better determine whether the phaser was counterfeit (as they unusually high efficiency of the unit in question demonstrated).

Major Diarrhia wrote:Phasers never heat up,

How can you possibly know that? We've never seen anyone drop a phaser because it was too hot to handle, but that doesn't mean they never radiate any waste heat; they simply have to do it at manageable rates.

Major Diarrhia wrote: they must have some way of getting rid of the heat.

Every devices that uses energy has to get rid of waste heat somehow.

Major Diarrhia wrote: Couldn't they use the waste heat to further excite the particle stream and get rid of it that way?

That wouldn't be an inefficiency, would it?

Major Diarrhia wrote: Maybe it turns the waste heat back into energy?

Again, that doesn't qualify as inefficiency.

Major Diarrhia wrote: Or maybe the overload ability is a function of the waste heat system.

Non-sequitur: I don't see how the efficiency of the firing mechanism would be affected by the weapons ability to overload.

Major Diarrhia wrote: Maybe phasers store waste heat and release it at a manageable rate.

Some kind of heat sink within the weapon is a possibility, but that reservoir will still get hot if you fire continuously long enough. Sooner or later, any waste heat generated by the phaser has to come out of it.

Major Diarrhia wrote: That would mean overload is the phaser working at 0% efficiency, turning all of its energy into heat, and overcoming it's heat disipation system.

That doesn't reallyl make any sense. An overload is programming the phaser to deliberately, explosively release all of its remaining energy at once.

Major Diarrhia wrote:Other note: The Jem'Hadar "uniform also includes energy absorbing pads that can defeat a Starfleet Level 3 containment field". It could be that these pads also protect against low level particle weapons. That would mean a normal kill shot wouldn't be effective, upping the needed power. Then there is the Jem'Hadar natural hardiness to consider, a normal kill shot may not work even without armor that may or may not effect kill shots.

Red-herring city.

Major Diarrhia wrote:In Enterprise, the crew had to up the phase pistol output to I think 10MJ. That may be wrong, some one calced it to be half a stick of dynamites worth of energy.

I'm not familiar with the incident, but there's no guarantee that Enterprise phase pistols have the same performance characteristics as Next Gen phasers.

Major Diarrhia wrote: Those big pulse shots in First Contact are most likely more powrfull than the normal beam shots and small rapid pulses in Nemesis.

I don't see the relevance of these comments. We're discussing likely "ammunition" supplies and fire rates for the Type III in particular, since the information available for this discussion all pertains to the Type III phaser rifle that was being tested in "The Mind's Eye". Other Federation weapons may be more or less efficient and perform differently in various ways. Heck, even the Type III can be tricked into performing more efficiently (up around 94%) just by using a different kind of power supply to charge it! The issue here is that a Type III rifle potentially has thousands of shots in its "magazine" and that its inefficiency limits the amount of power that can be used in one shot and the rate of fire because of the danger to the user from waste heat.

Checking my math, if the phaser's total energy capacity was 52.5 MJ, then if that were released in a single blast, that would be equivalent to 33 pounds of TNT?