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Can anyone help me answer some of these questions?

1) Are Trills founding members of the Federation? Were they around in ENT's time, and contribute to the founding of the Federation?

2) Given 1) is a "yes!" how old would Dax be, first host or second etc?

3) What other aliens are considered founding members? We know Vulcans are pivotal, as are the Andorians. Anyone else?

4) Betazoids - they're apparently aliens, but they look exactly like humans. In TOS there were humans who had ESP and TP - coincidence? Perhaps the Betazoids are human telepaths? I know this is a stretch - where does it say the Betazoids are clearly aliens?

5) What are some examples of ENT's (and B&B's) continuity abuse? Note this is an open-ended question - feel free to vent. What has crawled up your arse about this show? What is the worst plot device or theme hook they've introduced which has upset you? Suggest alternatives if you feel like it. IE "I hate how they did x, they should have done y." etc.

6) The Romulan War happened first, then the Federation formed. I just need confirmation on that (I think it's yes).

Thanks for helping. If I have any more questions I'll post them.

Stofsk wrote:6) The Romulan War happened first, then the Federation formed. I just need confirmation on that (I think it's yes).

It is indeed a yes. A chronology I own put the formation in 2171.

The Dax symbiont was born in 2018.

1. No, the Trills join during the interim between STVI:TUdC and TNG.

2. N/A possibily on his first or second host IIRC.

3. Humans, Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites and the Centauri(not the B5 kind though)

4. ? No answer off the top of my head, possibily some medical techno-babble from Dr. Crusher might answer this.

5. .......I don't have that kind of time....lets just say every technical aspect of the show contrvenes continuity, plus they have yet to get even one aspect of the foundation or history of the Federation right on any level. My only solution would be to nuke the master tapes and the entire production team.

6. Yes, the First Romulan War is the catalyst event for the birth of the Federation. The founding worlds were faced with eiether banding together or being overrun by the invading Romulan. After the Battle of Charon broke the back of the Romulan Fleet, and the Praetor was forced to sue for peace, the Alliance govenments decided to create a permaneant political and economic union that eventually became the United Federation of Planets.

Sokar wrote:1. No, the Trills join during the interim between STVI:TUdC and TNG.

Interestingly, the Federation didn't seem to know wha they were when they joined, otherwise Crusher wouldn't have been so surprised to find out.

Sharp-kun wrote:

Sokar wrote:1. No, the Trills join during the interim between STVI:TUdC and TNG.

Interestingly, the Federation didn't seem to know wha they were when they joined, otherwise Crusher wouldn't have been so surprised to find out.

Crusher could just be an idiot, y'know.

Stofsk wrote:

Sharp-kun wrote:

Sokar wrote:1. No, the Trills join during the interim between STVI:TUdC and TNG.

Interestingly, the Federation didn't seem to know wha they were when they joined, otherwise Crusher wouldn't have been so surprised to find out.

Crusher could just be an idiot, y'know.

I would have put it down to that, if it wasn't for the fact that nobody seemed to know

Then we come to All-time favourite Fallback Position: Everyone is an Idiot (tm).

Yes, it's the catch-all excuse to perserving Suspension of Disbislief. When people make contradictory statements, they are stupid, even though it makes you wonder how they got the job in the first place.

The problem is that the episode where the Trill first appeared made it clear that the worms inside the trill was a huge suprise to everyone, to the point where not even their medical doctor, who should know this shit, is completely blown away by it. Data doesn't even know this stuff or anything about them, particularly since he volunteered to keep the worm warm while a new Trill got their... something he wouldn't have asked if he was familiar with the Trill.

The trill also went from "bumpy forhead" aliens to "spots on the neck, but otherwise human looking" aliens.

Could it be that by some wild coincidence, there are two separate symbiot/host species named Trill? It sounds implausible, but so does every other attempt to reconcile TNG Trills and DS9 Trills.

I don't have a problem with it. I just accept the fact that they fucked up and ignore the TNG Trill.

4) Betazoids - they're apparently aliens, but they look exactly like humans. In TOS there were humans who had ESP and TP - coincidence? Perhaps the Betazoids are human telepaths? I know this is a stretch - where does it say the Betazoids are clearly aliens?

Pure Betazoids all have black eyes. Troi doesn't because she's half human, although hers are dark enough that they almost look completely dark.

Don't know if you want to look at that as proof of being non-human or not, but it is the one defining physical characteristic of Betazoids that I can see.

err, where's the proof that all betazoids have only black eyes?

have we ever seen close ups enough to know for certain? and we've only really seen a handful of betazoids, unless it's stated in some canon source, i'd be more inclined to believe that they have a diversity of eye color.

Is Lwusxusana Troi not a Betazoid? I don't recall black eyes from her.

Watch any episode with Lwaxana, her irises are completely dark. As are Tam Elbrun's from the TNG "Tinman" episode and Ensign Suder's from Voyager.

I'm trying to think of any other Betazoid's we see close up in Trek....

I always figured a dark iris was a racial chartacteristic of Betazoids.

The big thing is that they don't call Batezeds, humans. If they were human they would call them humans.

Here some images of betazoids. All examples of pure Betazoids we see in Trek (as far as I know/remember) have black eyes.

Lwaxana:

One
Two
Three

Ensign Suder:

One
Two
Three

Stadi (Voyager helmsman)
One
Two

Tam Elbrun
One

Major Diarrhia wrote:The big thing is that they don't call Batezeds, humans. If they were human they would call them humans.

They seem to be biologically human to me. After all, they can breed with humans and have viable offsprings. They are the same species. They've got all the human characteristics you could ask for. Dark pupils and telepathy do not an alien make. Betazed is with in spitting range of Earth. They could easily be a human colony world.

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Major Diarrhia wrote:The big thing is that they don't call Batezeds, humans. If they were human they would call them humans.

They seem to be biologically human to me. After all, they can breed with humans and have viable offsprings. They are the same species. They've got all the human characteristics you could ask for. Dark pupils and telepathy do not an alien make. Betazed is with in spitting range of Earth. They could easily be a human colony world.

Just because they look the same and can breed doesn't mean they are the same species. We know for a fact that all humanoid aliens in Trek share a common ancestor species. Two, the stuff in the second sentence goes for Vulcans, Klingons, Telerites, Ocompas(galactic seperation), Rigelians, and probably a few others. No mention of genetic engineering being needed for Spock was ever made to my knowledge. Only minor gene engineering was needed for B'elana's(Klingon/human) and Paris's(human) child, because of certain impending birth defects common to Klingons. Humanoids in Trek can breed and have viable offspring, it indicates no further relation other than the progenators from billions of years ago.

By your reconing, almost all the species in TOS would have been human, with differences explained by mutation or self inflicted modification. Same goes for TNG with Sargon, last of the T'Kon, an interstellar empire from 600,000 years ago just because he looks human.

We mustn't forget Cardasian Bajoran hybrids and the Cardasian Kazon hybrid, two species seperated by an entire galaxy.

Major Diarrhia wrote: Just because they look the same and can breed doesn't mean they are the same species. <rest of message snipped>

I don't even need to respond to the rest. Just refer to the bolded section. I hope you understand what you just said there.

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Major Diarrhia wrote: Just because they look the same and can breed doesn't mean they are the same species. <rest of message snipped>

I don't even need to respond to the rest. Just refer to the bolded section. I hope you understand what you just said there.

ok, let me take a shot. If you have a peach tree and a plum tree, they look about the same and can breed to produce peach/plum hybrids (I know this from experience because my friend has a peach/plum tree graft, and it's made peach/plums for a while now). Does that mean despite some minor cosmetic differences (one makes peaches and another makes plums), they are the same species?

Matt Huang wrote:ok, let me take a shot. If you have a peach tree and a plum tree, they look about the same and can breed to produce peach/plum hybrids (I know this from experience because my friend has a peach/plum tree graft, and it's made peach/plums for a while now). Does that mean despite some minor cosmetic differences (one makes peaches and another makes plums), they are the same species?

Since when did humanoids become stone fruit trees? Besides, grafting is a different animal than sexual reproduction. Unless of course you are saying that taking a leg from a Vulcan and sticking it on a human will make a human/vuclan hybrid.

Matt Huang wrote:

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Major Diarrhia wrote: Just because they look the same and can breed doesn't mean they are the same species. <rest of message snipped>

I don't even need to respond to the rest. Just refer to the bolded section. I hope you understand what you just said there.

ok, let me take a shot. If you have a peach tree and a plum tree, they look about the same and can breed to produce peach/plum hybrids (I know this from experience because my friend has a peach/plum tree graft, and it's made peach/plums for a while now). Does that mean despite some minor cosmetic differences (one makes peaches and another makes plums), they are the same species?

No, it doesn't. Horses and donkeys can crossbreed, too. There's a critical difference here, though: horses and donkeys, peach and plum trees, share a common ancestor in the near past. If humans and Betazeds actually evolved on different planets, then the horse has a better shot of breeding with the plum tree than humans and Betazeds do. Even taking "The Chase" into account, the nearest common ancestor would be 3 billion year old DNA.

Major Diarrhia wrote:The big thing is that they don't call Batezeds, humans. If they were human they would call them humans.

Not necessarily. Think of it as a cultural identity rather than a species name. They look human, and the only difference is that they're telepaths or empaths. Well there were human telepaths/espers in TOS - they were introduced in two episodes (at least), "Where no man has gone before" and the one with the Medusan Ambassador and the blind telepath girl who's his translator/secretary (sorry, I can't think of the name). So what happened to them? We know there are some humans who have telepathic abilities, we see in TNG that there are Betazoids who look very human and have telepathic abilites.

Perhaps Betazoid is the name of the colony or planet and it was founded by telepathic humans?