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In an episode of DS9 Sisko states that they don't require the merchants on the promenade to pay rent or maintenace fees. So how the hell do they keep the stations budget in the black? Even if they don't have money and are operating on some kind of high tech barter system things still don't even out down the line. For example: when the Defiant needed a new part we were treated to a long drawn out saga of favours and bartering to get it. When instead why didn't they simply take the money out of the stations or Defiant's budget and buy one?

That entire trade for a part episode was a play on the sort of things that happen due to war shortages just watch any episode of MASH where Radar (or later Klinger) has to beg, borrow and steal to get some vital surgical equipment, a jeep or a thanksgiving turkey etc.

As for no rent, perhaps Starfleet personnel get a tab at Quarks instead.

Do they even have a budget? I always thought that the Federation doesn't use money.

TheDarkling wrote:As for no rent, perhaps Starfleet personnel get a tab at Quarks instead.

That system would be highly inefficient, and somebody would be getting a bad deal. If the tab is excessively high, Starfleet gets it good, if the tab is below what rent and utilities would be, then the merchant gets it good. Highly variable.

neoolong wrote:

TheDarkling wrote:As for no rent, perhaps Starfleet personnel get a tab at Quarks instead.

That system would be highly inefficient, and somebody would be getting a bad deal. If the tab is excessively high, Starfleet gets it good, if the tab is below what rent and utilities would be, then the merchant gets it good. Highly variable.

Theres an Irishman in the crew, Starfleet would be getting it's moneys worth.

Embracer Of Darkness wrote:Do they even have a budget? I always thought that the Federation doesn't use money.

I don't see how they can not have a budget. Even if they don't use money, they have to have some way to obtain goods.

closet sci-fi fan wrote:

For example: when the Defiant needed a new part we were treated to a long drawn out saga of favours and bartering to get it. When instead why didn't they simply take the money out of the stations or Defiant's budget and buy one?

The part wasn't available due to war shortages.

The Defiant is one of Starfleet's premier front line warships, and would be very important to maintain, particularly if this was the Dominion war and its sitting next to the wormhole. You'd think that wartime would get them their part faster while denying stuff to the Excelsiors and such.

does anyone know what part it was exactly? maybe it was something that wasn't have expected to needed replacing so there weren't any on hand immediately. i think i recognize the episode but it's been awhile since i've seen DS9.

Cpl Kendall wrote:

Embracer Of Darkness wrote:Do they even have a budget? I always thought that the Federation doesn't use money.

I don't see how they can not have a budget. Even if they don't use money, they have to have some way to obtain goods.

Why not by their own manufacture and requisition?

Embracer Of Darkness wrote:

Cpl Kendall wrote:

Embracer Of Darkness wrote:Do they even have a budget? I always thought that the Federation doesn't use money.

I don't see how they can not have a budget. Even if they don't use money, they have to have some way to obtain goods.

Why not by their own manufacture and requisition?

You mean that Starfleet produces it's own parts and equipment? We now that there is at least some private enterprise in the federation as Tom Paris mentions the producers of the "Dixon Hill" series.

To make a point:

The episode was Trechery, Faith and the Great River.

SISKO
I'm not talking about the
Promenade -- I'm talking about
the Defiant. When are you going
to get the gravity net repaired?
The last time I stepped onto the
bridge, I felt ten kilos heavier.

This is the last thing O'Brien wants to hear; he has
enough problems already.

O'BRIEN
I'm afraid it's going to take
some time, sir.

SISKO
How much time?

O'BRIEN
About three weeks. The graviton
stabilizer has to be replaced.

SISKO
You have three days. The
Defiant's going back out on
patrol, and I don't want my crew
getting queasy because the
gravity keeps fluctuating.

O'BRIEN
But, sir -- the sector
quartermaster said it's going to
take him three weeks to get us a
new stabilizer.

SISKO
That's your problem, Chief. I'm
leaving for a conference on Bajor
and I want the stabilizer
replaced by the time I get back.
Do I make myself clear?

O'BRIEN
Yes, sir.

In essence, it was clearly a part that the Industrial replicators on DS9 couldn't simply replicate (or they were offline or something who knows). O'Brien had put in a request and it was being processed. It was a non mission critical request, the Defiant still worked fine, it was just that hte graivty net on the bridge was operating at slightly more then 1G.

The part must be something that very rarely brakes down given that DS9 serves as a repair base for ships comming off the front line a lot of the time. And didn't have one on hand. And understandably in a war, shipments of non critcial items get shuffled down into the priority list.

And Sisko was being an ass

In the end, Nog was able to get a hold of one through a complex series of trades...what was it again..oh yeah. He got a bottle of wine to the Sector Quatermaster which got him the name of a Starship that had an extra one of those parts. He then loaned Siskos desk to some guy who liked to take pictures of himself behind famous Captians desks or something, then that guy swapped a phaser emmiter to another starship which swappd an induction modulator for the gravity thing which went to DS9.

And all in a couple of days.

To all those who think when Nog joined Starfleet he was required to give up his Capitalistic ways, think again

Ok, Sisko was being a dick. I served in the Canadian army and when the mechanics say something is broken and they have to wait for the part, thats what happens. Regardless of how much the CO bitches or threatens.

Evidently Sisko has no idea how things work for his technicians.

Cpl Kendall wrote:Ok, Sisko was being a dick. I served in the Canadian army and when the mechanics say something is broken and they have to wait for the part, thats what happens. Regardless of how much the CO bitches or threatens.

Evidently Sisko has no idea how things work for his technicians.

there is quite a differnece between a peacetime army and one at war.

Col. Crackpot wrote:

Cpl Kendall wrote:Ok, Sisko was being a dick. I served in the Canadian army and when the mechanics say something is broken and they have to wait for the part, thats what happens. Regardless of how much the CO bitches or threatens.

Evidently Sisko has no idea how things work for his technicians.

there is quite a differnece between a peacetime army and one at war.

Yes there is. But if the parts aren't there then there's not alot you can do about it. Sisko would have been better off just dealing with the situation and taking the Defiant out as is. Rather than alienating his maintenance staff. Was he expecting O'Brien to perform a miracle?

Cpl Kendall wrote:Was he expecting O'Brien to perform a miracle?

Probably, when you consider the miracles those guys pull out of their ass' all the time.

As for the original topic, I know Quark at least doesn't pay rent, Sisko threatened him with having to pay rent, IIRC back rent as well. I think they think of the buisneses as some sort of public service to off duity personle or something. The crew is payed in local currency for use on the station, otherwise how would they all have latinum to play dobo(sp) and buy drinks.

All trek engineers are miracle workers when you consider the number of technobabble solutions invented by them.

Must be a requirement to be chief engineer.

Col. Crackpot wrote:there is quite a differnece between a peacetime army and one at war.

During a war spare parts are going to be in much higher demand then they are during peacetime, getting a spare part shouldn't be any easier, and might even be harder, during a war then in peacetime.

Maybe hoarding these kinds of parts is how starfleet engineers get the miracle worker reputation with their captain's to begin with.

Until they need a part they don't have, and are promptly screwed.

Asdeed wrote:Maybe hoarding these kinds of parts is how starfleet engineers get the miracle worker reputation with their captain's to begin with.

Until they need a part they don't have, and are promptly screwed.

Necromancy, first of all. But you're right, I think I remember Scotty saying something to that effect. I think it was something about telling the captain you needed three times as much time as you actually need, then he'll give you a third of what you ask for and you look like a miracle worker when you get it done. Do not ask me for an episode name, its been forever. Hell, I think it may have been a book, in which case ignore this completely.

The episode that scotty said that was when he came back from the past.

He explained that to Geordi, so it doesnt explaine how Geordi was able to pull miracles out of his ass before he got that advice

Rogue 9 wrote:Necromancy, first of all. But you're right, I think I remember Scotty saying something to that effect. I think it was something about telling the captain you needed three times as much time as you actually need, then he'll give you a third of what you ask for and you look like a miracle worker when you get it done. Do not ask me for an episode name, its been forever. Hell, I think it may have been a book, in which case ignore this completely.

Episode was "Relics" I believe.

Anyway, in the real world if you're in a dire situation you will be forced to improvise. Look at Apollo 13 for instance. I don't know the canon of the movie compared to real life, but if the part with the CO2 filter is true then that could make a perfect example.

Admiral Drason wrote:The episode that scotty said that was when he came back from the past.

He explained that to Geordi, so it doesnt explaine how Geordi was able to pull miracles out of his ass before he got that advice

Yeah, I know I remembered him saying it to Geordi, which seemed so screwed up to me that I didn't put that part in. Momentary lapse in memory there. Forgot about the transporter thing.

I thought that "blowing repair estimates out of proportion" thing was from TSFS?

GoldenFalcon wrote:

Rogue 9 wrote:Necromancy, first of all. But you're right, I think I remember Scotty saying something to that effect. I think it was something about telling the captain you needed three times as much time as you actually need, then he'll give you a third of what you ask for and you look like a miracle worker when you get it done. Do not ask me for an episode name, its been forever. Hell, I think it may have been a book, in which case ignore this completely.

Episode was "Relics" I believe.

Anyway, in the real world if you're in a dire situation you will be forced to improvise. Look at Apollo 13 for instance. I don't know the canon of the movie compared to real life, but if the part with the CO2 filter is true then that could make a perfect example.

It is true they really had to do that. The movie Apollo 13 is almost exacatally historically accurate. The only difference is that NASA does not have footage of most of what happened but the movie follows the logs at mission control almost exactally. This is a case of truth being stranger than fiction.

Dilema: We do not have enough filter for LM
We have plenty of CM one.

Problem: THe square CM module will not fit in the round slot on the LM

Solution: Make an adapter to make the thing work with only the stuff they have available to them on the spacecraft.