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Right, I just watched an episode of TNG where Troi's mother falls in love with a scientist about to kill himself, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Anyway, long story short scientist's star is about to die, so they test out a way to revive the star on another star, but it results in destroying the star instead, and all that was used were ~8-12 proton torpedoes that had their guidence system (probably some other systems too) "modified."

Now, the obvious question is why the hell the federation never uses this technology against the Borg, but the other question is that maybe this could help the federation get a fighting chance against the empire if they ever fought in the SW galaxy...

Straha wrote:Right, I just watched an episode of TNG where Troi's mother falls in love with a scientist about to kill himself, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Anyway, long story short scientist's star is about to die, so they test out a way to revive the star on another star, but it results in destroying the star instead, and all that was used were ~8-12 proton torpedoes that had their guidence system (probably some other systems too) "modified."

Now, the obvious question is why the hell the federation never uses this technology against the Borg, but the other question is that maybe this could help the federation get a fighting chance against the empire if they ever fought in the SW galaxy...

Do you mean photon torpedoes? There are many means in Trek (some smaller and less involved than Timicin's) of destroying stars, such as trilithium bombs (some the size of basketballs). But that's only really effective against fixed installations. Federation ships with warp drive aren't really threatened by it, and SW ships are...well, they're a bit faster.

Even if a Fed ship did manage to destroy an Imperial system, few if any of the Imperial ships in the system would be destroyed. Practically every Wars ship I'm familiar with would destroy a Fed ship before it could get to another system (days for a Fed ship, seconds for a Wars ship). And of course there's Wars communication tech. The Feds might kill a shitload of civilians with the first attack, but it would be the only attack.

Then there's the fact that the Federation doesn't do that because it is fucking evil, the massacre of billions of civilians isn't really their idiom.

Straha wrote:Right, I just watched an episode of TNG where Troi's mother falls in love with a scientist about to kill himself, yadda, yadda, yadda.

*groan* I hated any and all episodes involving Troi's mother.

Anyway, long story short scientist's star is about to die, so they test out a way to revive the star on another star, but it results in destroying the star instead, and all that was used were ~8-12 proton torpedoes that had their guidence system (probably some other systems too) "modified."

Keep in mind that not all stars are the same. This one was chosen because it was old, and in Star Trek, that means it's unstable.

Now, the obvious question is why the hell the federation never uses this technology against the Borg, but the other question is that maybe this could help the federation get a fighting chance against the empire if they ever fought in the SW galaxy...

Even if not for the above concerns, the Federation could never use this technology against the Borg because they would never make it far enough into Borg space to deploy it against a Borg system. Hell, they'd have enough trouble just reaching Borg space.

As it is, supernova weapons aren't as commonplace as people think. The Klingons Lursa and Betor thought that a supernova weapon would give them the ability to retake their empire with nothing but their lone BOP; rather high expectations if these things are in fact commonplace and easily made.

Darth Wong wrote:As it is, supernova weapons aren't as commonplace as people think. The Klingons Lursa and Betor thought that a supernova weapon would give them the ability to retake their empire with nothing but their lone BOP; rather high expectations if these things are in fact commonplace and easily made.

We know for a fact that Galaxy class warp cores make trilithium (and that might mean other Fed ships too). And honestly the only unique thing about the Generations weapon was how damned fast the delivery system was. Lursa and B'etor were simply irrational. Common or not, a supernova weapon of any type would not have let them take the Empire. I fail to see how their overzealousness therefore means the weapon is rare. Common and readily available are two different things. Not to mention - the Rotarran destroyed a star, and I don't recall any really fancy tech being used. There seem to be a few relatively spectacular things (photonic shockwaves, the planetkilling technique from TNG "The Chase," the slingshot effect from ST4, subspace flectures) that can be done with ordinary Trek tech if only you know the proper technique. Starkilling is not that hard to do in Trek, but neither is it much of an advantage if you have to fight your way through enemy fleets. Lursa and B'etor were simply fucking stupid and irrational.

Shit. I better take a stance. Here's my stance: the Federation (possibly the majority of Starfleet ships) and some individual Klingons have the means to destroy a star (either by trilithium or technobabble). Lursa and B'etor lacked the technical expertise of most Fed officers and apparently of Martok, and they lacked the tech. But they are not representative of the Federation or of all Klingon houses or ships. Not in tech, not in education.

Metrion Cascade wrote:We know for a fact that Galaxy class warp cores make trilithium (and that might mean other Fed ships too).

So? We know for a fact that people have had the ability to mine uranium out of the ground for thousands of years, but the atom bomb didn't come along until WW2.

And what was Soren's research facility for, if the technology is already commonplace? Shits and giggles?

And honestly the only unique thing about the Generations weapon was how damned fast the delivery system was. Lursa and B'etor were simply irrational. Common or not, a supernova weapon of any type would not have let them take the Empire. I fail to see how their overzealousness therefore means the weapon is rare.

Oh right, so Soren figured he could use it as leverage to buy help because it was so common?

Common and readily available are two different things. Not to mention - the Rotarran destroyed a star, and I don't recall any really fancy tech being used. There seem to be a few relatively spectacular things (photonic shockwaves, the planetkilling technique from TNG "The Chase," the slingshot effect from ST4, subspace flectures) that can be done with ordinary Trek tech if only you know the proper technique.

What is spectacular about them?

Starkilling is not that hard to do in Trek

Right, that's why the futuristic inventors of the Tox Uthat were being chased through time for such a device.

While such weapons have been seen, it seems reasonable to surmise that they are extremely difficult to make, for whatever reason. Consider the analogy of a nation which can produce only a few grams of refined nuclear weapons-grade material per month. It might be able to produce a nuclear weapon sooner or later, but it sure as hell won't be able to make a lot of them.

but neither is it much of an advantage if you have to fight your way through enemy fleets.

Nonsense. If the star system is in your operational range, you can simply fire torpedoes at warp speed from long range and multiple attack vectors. One of them will get through, unless I'm right about the difficulty of making them.

Lursa and B'etor were simply fucking stupid and irrational.

That much is clear, but it doesn't mean they would sell themselves in order to get a commonplace weapon.

Darth Wong wrote:

Metrion Cascade wrote:We know for a fact that Galaxy class warp cores make trilithium (and that might mean other Fed ships too).

So? We know for a fact that people have had the ability to mine uranium out of the ground for thousands of years, but the atom bomb didn't come along until WW2.

Uranium requires a very specific set of circumstances to cause a nuclear explosion. That is not the case with trilithium and supernovas.

And what was Soren's research facility for, if the technology is already commonplace? Shits and giggles?

How do we know the facility was researching star destruction? Why the hell would the Federation have such a facility, and why would anyone build it without a warp-capable means of escape?

And honestly the only unique thing about the Generations weapon was how damned fast the delivery system was. Lursa and B'etor were simply irrational. Common or not, a supernova weapon of any type would not have let them take the Empire. I fail to see how their overzealousness therefore means the weapon is rare.

Oh right, so Soren figured he could use it as leverage to buy help because it was so common?

If you meet some idiot who thinks your $50 Timex is worth $2000 and wants to buy it from you, do you have to think it's worth $2000 too in order to sell it to them for $2000? He was banking on their assessment of its worth regardless of whether he agreed with that assessment.

Common and readily available are two different things. Not to mention - the Rotarran destroyed a star, and I don't recall any really fancy tech being used. There seem to be a few relatively spectacular things (photonic shockwaves, the planetkilling technique from TNG "The Chase," the slingshot effect from ST4, subspace flectures) that can be done with ordinary Trek tech if only you know the proper technique.

What is spectacular about them?

Relatively spectacular. By which I mean we've not seen the same effects from the same tech under other circumstances. The photonic shockwave did more damage than firing a torpedo and phasers separately would do. A BOP without BDZ firepower killed everything on a planet. A BOP with no built-in time travel mechanism did it anyway. A shuttle went faster than its warp drive alone could do, simply via trickery. The "spectacular" is meant relative to what the tech is normally capable of. I'm not saying subspace flectures are better than, say, hyperdrive. But they are better than how the shuttle normally gets around.

Starkilling is not that hard to do in Trek

Right, that's why the futuristic inventors of the Tox Uthat were being chased through time for such a device.

The Utaat is superior to trilithium at least in terms of safety. And it might be reusable or have a long range. Not all of the particulars of how it's used were discussed. Not only that, but the Utaat's value may not lie solely in what it can do, but also in the tech it could result in if examined. We also saw people going gaga over the psionic resonator, which I'd say is less of a threat than the Utaat. Not only that, but time travel doesn't necessarily constitute exorbitant effort. The people chasing the Utaat appeared to have temporal transporters. How hard is it for them to use the temporal transporter if it's as commonplace in their time as ordinary transporters are in the 24th century?

While such weapons have been seen, it seems reasonable to surmise that they are extremely difficult to make, for whatever reason. Consider the analogy of a nation which can produce only a few grams of refined nuclear weapons-grade material per month. It might be able to produce a nuclear weapon sooner or later, but it sure as hell won't be able to make a lot of them.

but neither is it much of an advantage if you have to fight your way through enemy fleets.

Nonsense. If the star system is in your operational range, you can simply fire torpedoes at warp speed from long range and multiple attack vectors. One of them will get through, unless I'm right about the difficulty of making them.

Yes. But you have to beat or subjugate the fleet to take over an empire.

Lursa and B'etor were simply fucking stupid and irrational.

That much is clear, but it doesn't mean they would sell themselves in order to get a commonplace weapon.

Unless it was commonplace and still hard to get, or they were irrational about how hard it was to get otherwise. And just how much effort did they put into getting it, really? They jumped a few Romulans and took a guest aboard. Smaller Trek powers have done more work than that for less gain. L&B didn't exactly "sell themselves."

EDIT: fixed quote box.

And what do you make of Martok destroying a star with a BOP?

EDIT: replaced "the Rotarran" with "Martok."

Metrion Cascade wrote:Uranium requires a very specific set of circumstances to cause a nuclear explosion. That is not the case with trilithium and supernovas.

Oh really? And you know this ... how?

And what was Soren's research facility for, if the technology is already commonplace? Shits and giggles?

How do we know the facility was researching star destruction? Why the hell would the Federation have such a facility, and why would anyone build it without a warp-capable means of escape?

Oh, so Soren was there for no reason at all then? That makes even more sense

If you meet some idiot who thinks your $50 Timex is worth $2000 and wants to buy it from you, do you have to think it's worth $2000 too in order to sell it to them for $2000? He was banking on their assessment of its worth regardless of whether he agreed with that assessment.

And how did they know enough to communicate that desire to him since his weapon was a secret anyway? He obviously found them, not the other way around.

Relatively spectacular. By which I mean we've not seen the same effects from the same tech under other circumstances. The photonic shockwave did more damage than firing a torpedo and phasers separately would do.

Prove it.

A BOP without BDZ firepower killed everything on a planet.

Bioweapons have a way of doing that in sci-fi. So?

A BOP with no built-in time travel mechanism did it anyway.

Neato-keen, but how does that justify your claim that trilithium supernova weapons are common?

A shuttle went faster than its warp drive alone could do, simply via trickery.

Neato-keen, but how does that justify your claim that trilithium supernova weapons are common?

The Utaat is superior to trilithium at least in terms of safety. And it might be reusable or have a long range. Not all of the particulars of how it's used were discussed. Not only that, but the Utaat's value may not lie solely in what it can do, but also in the tech it could result in if examined.

And your evidence for this claim is ...?

We also saw people going gaga over the psionic resonator, which I'd say is less of a threat than the Utaat. Not only that, but time travel doesn't necessarily constitute exorbitant effort. The people chasing the Utaat appeared to have temporal transporters. How hard is it for them to use the temporal transporter if it's as commonplace in their time as ordinary transporters are in the 24th century?

I'm sorry, was there some portion of this which proved that trilithium supernova weapons are common in the 24th century or even their own century? Because I seem to have missed it.

Yes. But you have to beat or subjugate the fleet to take over an empire.

Nonsense. You need only force its leadership to surrender and/or wipe out its infrastructure. Its military will fall with no infrastructure.

Unless it was commonplace and still hard to get, or they were irrational about how hard it was to get otherwise. And just how much effort did they put into getting it, really? They jumped a few Romulans and took a guest aboard. Smaller Trek powers have done more work than that for less gain. L&B didn't exactly "sell themselves."

They debased themselves to the status of common criminals in hopes of getting this thing. And your "commonplace and still hard to get" explanation is so meaningless that it's downright funny.

Metrion Cascade wrote:And what do you make of Martok destroying a star with a BOP?

Precisely how did he do it?

Darth Wong wrote:

Metrion Cascade wrote:And what do you make of Martok destroying a star with a BOP?

Precisely how did he do it?

I believe she is refering to the DS9 episode "Shadows and Symbols" (Episode 552) where Work and Martok cause a "plasma ejection" (think solar flare) on the surface of a star which destroys a Cardassian/Dominion shipyard that is in low orbit around the star (why they built a shipyard there is beyond me).

In any case, the star did not go nova.

Darth Wong wrote:

Metrion Cascade wrote:Uranium requires a very specific set of circumstances to cause a nuclear explosion. That is not the case with trilithium and supernovas.

Oh really? And you know this ... how?

The burden of proof isn't on me. You're proposing something more complex than what we saw in TNG "Starship Mine" (improper containment=boom) I'll wait for you to demonstrate how you know that and what you think the more complex mechanism is.

And what was Soren's research facility for, if the technology is already commonplace? Shits and giggles?

How do we know the facility was researching star destruction? Why the hell would the Federation have such a facility, and why would anyone build it without a warp-capable means of escape?

Oh, so Soren was there for no reason at all then? That makes even more sense

Strawman fallacy. The Federation's motives for having the station and Soran's motives for being there don't have to be one and the same. The Federation wants one thing researched, Soran does that and a little weapon design on the side. His true motivation being to return to the Nexus. Are you seriously saying the Federation was researching starkilling weapons? Using a base whose staff couldn't escape the result of such a weapon?

If you meet some idiot who thinks your $50 Timex is worth $2000 and wants to buy it from you, do you have to think it's worth $2000 too in order to sell it to them for $2000? He was banking on their assessment of its worth regardless of whether he agreed with that assessment.

And how did they know enough to communicate that desire to him since his weapon was a secret anyway? He obviously found them, not the other way around.

How do you know he found them?

Relatively spectacular. By which I mean we've not seen the same effects from the same tech under other circumstances. The photonic shockwave did more damage than firing a torpedo and phasers separately would do.

Prove it.

Against the same ships, phasers and torpedoes alone didn't do the same damage. They'd been fighting with the same weapons and less effect.

A BOP without BDZ firepower killed everything on a planet.

Bioweapons have a way of doing that in sci-fi. So?

A BOP with no built-in time travel mechanism did it anyway.

Neato-keen, but how does that justify your claim that trilithium supernova weapons are common?

A shuttle went faster than its warp drive alone could do, simply via trickery.

Neato-keen, but how does that justify your claim that trilithium supernova weapons are common?

I never said they were "common." That's a completely meaningless and unprovable statement.

The point was that a given effect does not require tech specifically designed to generate it (further devaluing specific technologies). A BOP is not designed as a planetkiller, and a person trying to acquire a BOP doesn't think of it as one. But here we have a run-of-the-mill BOP pulling off the same feat that makes the Scimitar the hellish threat Picard thought it was. If the Scimitar is so dangerous because it can kill a planet, why isn't Picard off hunting BOPs? The above isn't necessary to my stance, but is a factor in determining how valuable L&B should consider trilithium.

The Utaat is superior to trilithium at least in terms of safety. And it might be reusable or have a long range. Not all of the particulars of how it's used were discussed. Not only that, but the Utaat's value may not lie solely in what it can do, but also in the tech it could result in if examined.

And your evidence for this claim is ...?

It fits the fact that a race more advanced than the Federation was interested in a weapon that, without the above advantages, is scarcely more valuable than a kilo of trilithium waste any GCS (and possibly any Fed ship) can generate. Their actions don't make sense unless the Utaat has some advantage over trilithium. We know from onscreen events that it is less volatile. The Utaat was tossed around and phasered, and the cute little explosion from the phasering caused virtually no damage. Unlike the trilithium that blew up a whole ship in TNG "Starship Mine" due to improper containment. That's an Utaat that can be phasered safely, vs. exorbitant effort to contain trilithium lest it otherwise explode violently.

We also saw people going gaga over the psionic resonator, which I'd say is less of a threat than the Utaat. Not only that, but time travel doesn't necessarily constitute exorbitant effort. The people chasing the Utaat appeared to have temporal transporters. How hard is it for them to use the temporal transporter if it's as commonplace in their time as ordinary transporters are in the 24th century?

I'm sorry, was there some portion of this which proved that trilithium supernova weapons are common in the 24th century or even their own century? Because I seem to have missed it.

Trilithium is generated by at least a dozen Fed ships and maybe all Fed or all M/AM driven ships. And where is your black/white fallacy of "common vs. uncommon" coming from? I never said these weapons were common ore even proposed a standard of what is or isn't common. All of Starfleet could be carrying this weapon and that still wouldn't mean L&B could readily get their hands on it.

Yes. But you have to beat or subjugate the fleet to take over an empire.

Nonsense. You need only force its leadership to surrender and/or wipe out its infrastructure. Its military will fall with no infrastructure.

Not before killing L&B. A single 50yo BOP is not going to outlast a fleet of younger BOPs and Vor'chas and Negh'vars. They have to factor that in when they assess their readiness to take over the Empire. And if they do destroy all the planets or Qo'Nos, or all the infrastructure supporting the fleet, there's functionally no empire left for them to take over. Just ships that want them dead.

Unless it was commonplace and still hard to get, or they were irrational about how hard it was to get otherwise. And just how much effort did they put into getting it, really? They jumped a few Romulans and took a guest aboard. Smaller Trek powers have done more work than that for less gain. L&B didn't exactly "sell themselves."

They debased themselves to the status of common criminals in hopes of getting this thing.

You're kidding, right? Even by Klingon standards they were already common criminals. And most Klingon captains we've met operated like common criminals themselves. And what do they care if they act like criminals? I'd act like a criminal too if I thought it would get me control of an empire. After which I'd silence anyone who called me a criminal, assuming they could find out what I'd done to get the weapon anyway. You're saying this action contradicts scruples that most Klingon officers (let alone the outcast L&B) just don't have. Why the hell do Klingons who're willing to destroy star systems care that other Klingons won't like them for killing a few Feds and ROMULANS? It's like someone who wants to nuke New York hesitating to kill a security guard at a missile silo because killing the guard would be murder. If they have a problem with being criminals, why are they after the weapon?

And your "commonplace and still hard to get" explanation is so meaningless that it's downright funny.

Money is "commonplace" and I'm not a millionaire. Cocaine is "commonplace" and I don't know where to buy it. Cars are "commonplace" and some people don't have the means to buy them. There's no point in trying to prove that starkilling tech is "common" when nobody has decided what does or doesn't constitute "common." It's like debating whether a ship is "fast." The word is meaningless and a stance on the question is totally subjective. You can't debate something like that. You can debate what its actual quantitative speed might be, or whether it's faster than another ship. But you can't debate "fast."

Are you saying starkillers aren't common compared to some other weapon? Are you proposing a per capita ratio of starkilling weapons to population, above which the weapon is common and below which it isn't? Your quibbling about "common" is what's meaningless. Before you claim to be getting somewhere, pick a stance that can be proven true or false. "It's not common" is not a stance.

The Kernel wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:

Metrion Cascade wrote:And what do you make of Martok destroying a star with a BOP?

Precisely how did he do it?

I believe she is refering to the DS9 episode "Shadows and Symbols" (Episode 552) where Work and Martok cause a "plasma ejection" (think solar flare) on the surface of a star which destroys a Cardassian/Dominion shipyard that is in low orbit around the star (why they built a shipyard there is beyond me).

In any case, the star did not go nova.

It didn't? Then I concede that there is no evidence of any Klingons having starkilling tech.

Darth Wong wrote:This one was chosen because it was old, and in Star Trek, that means it's unstable.

Wouldn't an older star be actually more stable than a younger one ?

Metrion Cascade wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:

Metrion Cascade wrote:Uranium requires a very specific set of circumstances to cause a nuclear explosion. That is not the case with trilithium and supernovas.

Oh really? And you know this ... how?

The burden of proof isn't on me. You're proposing something more complex than what we saw in TNG "Starship Mine" (improper containment=boom) I'll wait for you to demonstrate how you know that and what you think the more complex mechanism is.

Worf ST7 wrote: An experimental compound the Romulans have been working on. In theory, a
trilithium-based explosive would be thousands of times more powerful
than an anti-matter weapon. But they never found a way to stabilize it.

SORAN ST7 wrote: Without my research, the trilithium is worthless, as are your plans to
reconquer the Klingon Empire.

The burden of proof is on you.
Prove that trilithium without Sorans research can destroy a sun.

A better question would be, would a star-killing-weapon be of any use to a ship, a planet or fixed artificial installation?

Luzifer's right hand wrote: The burden of proof is on you.
Prove that trilithium without Sorans research can destroy a sun.

Someone doesnt understand how the burden of proof works or most likely doesnt know how to express it.

Trilithium itself is common. It just near imposible to use it in a safe manor.

This makes it very very difficult to use as a weapon, since it is about as volatile as nitroglycerin and with a 'large' explosive yield.

The problem is not causing Trilithium to explode, but preventing it from exploding long enough todo something usefull.

ggs wrote:

Luzifer's right hand wrote: The burden of proof is on you.
Prove that trilithium without Sorans research can destroy a sun.

Someone doesnt understand how the burden of proof works or most likely doesnt know how to express it.

Trilithium itself is common. It just near imposible to use it in a safe manor.

This makes it very very difficult to use as a weapon, since it is about as volatile as nitroglycerin and with a 'large' explosive yield.

The problem is not causing Trilithium to explode, but preventing it from exploding long enough todo something usefull.

Person 1: I think that trilithium without sorans research can destroy a sun.
Person 2: What is your proof?
Person 1: No one has been able to prove that trilithium without sorans research can not destroy a sun.

hence the burden of proof is on Person 1

Dr. Timicin wasn't attempting to make the star go boom.

His home star had reached the end of its fusion cycle; it ran out of hydrogen fuel, they wanted to find a similar star to test his theory of re-initiating fusion using helium as a fuel.

Something went wrong with the calculations, and star go boom.

Enola Straight wrote:Dr. Timicin wasn't attempting to make the star go boom.

His home star had reached the end of its fusion cycle; it ran out of hydrogen fuel, they wanted to find a similar star to test his theory of re-initiating fusion using helium as a fuel.

Something went wrong with the calculations, and star go boom.

So? The end was that it still went boom! Now theoretically you could use his research to make other stars go BOOM, and thus wield a pretty hefty weapon.

Metrion Cascade wrote:The burden of proof isn't on me. You're proposing something more complex than what we saw in TNG "Starship Mine" (improper containment=boom) I'll wait for you to demonstrate how you know that and what you think the more complex mechanism is.

Bullshit. Grow a fucking brain, moron. The fact that this stuff blew up a small shuttle through containment loss does not mean that it must also set off a supernova through the same mechanism. Does the term "non sequitur" mean anything to you? Or is simple logic just beyond your intellectual capacity?

Strawman fallacy. The Federation's motives for having the station and Soran's motives for being there don't have to be one and the same. The Federation wants one thing researched, Soran does that and a little weapon design on the side.

For a weapon which is "commonplace"? Right.

His true motivation being to return to the Nexus. Are you seriously saying the Federation was researching starkilling weapons? Using a base whose staff couldn't escape the result of such a weapon?

I'm seriously saying that whatever the Federation was researching there was obviously necessary for Soren's own weapon research, and that this would not have been necessary if such weapons were commonplace; he could simply buy one.

How do you know he found them?

Grow a brain. He wasn't advertising his weapon all over the place, so obviously he would have had to covertly seek a buyer, rather than buyers coming to him.

Against the same ships, phasers and torpedoes alone didn't do the same damage. They'd been fighting with the same weapons and less effect.

Ah, so you conclude that they violated conservation of energy instead of simply using a neat trick to hit a ship from its flanks rather than its forward shield? Always leaping to the simplest conclusion, right?:roll:

I never said they were "common." That's a completely meaningless and unprovable statement.

You suggested that trilithium weapons might be "Unless it was commonplace and still hard to get". If you can't defend it, just back down instead of pretending you never said it.

The point was that a given effect does not require tech specifically designed to generate it (further devaluing specific technologies). A BOP is not designed as a planetkiller, and a person trying to acquire a BOP doesn't think of it as one. But here we have a run-of-the-mill BOP pulling off the same feat that makes the Scimitar the hellish threat Picard thought it was. If the Scimitar is so dangerous because it can kill a planet, why isn't Picard off hunting BOPs? The above isn't necessary to my stance, but is a factor in determining how valuable L&B should consider trilithium.

"Appeal to ignorance" fallacy; with no evidence at all, you are proposing that capabilities must exist because I can't disprove them.

It fits the fact that a race more advanced than the Federation was interested in a weapon that, without the above advantages, is scarcely more valuable than a kilo of trilithium waste any GCS (and possibly any Fed ship) can generate. Their actions don't make sense unless the Utaat has some advantage over trilithium. We know from onscreen events that it is less volatile. The Utaat was tossed around and phasered, and the cute little explosion from the phasering caused virtually no damage. Unlike the trilithium that blew up a whole ship in TNG "Starship Mine" due to improper containment. That's an Utaat that can be phasered safely, vs. exorbitant effort to contain trilithium lest it otherwise explode violently.

"Circular logic" fallacy. You are assuming that the trilithium weapon is easily made in order to support your general argument that it is easily made.

Trilithium is generated by at least a dozen Fed ships and maybe all Fed or all M/AM driven ships. And where is your black/white fallacy of "common vs. uncommon" coming from? I never said these weapons were common ore even proposed a standard of what is or isn't common. All of Starfleet could be carrying this weapon and that still wouldn't mean L&B could readily get their hands on it.

What you are saying is that such weapons can be easily made. So easily made that it could even happen by accident. Ergo, they would be common, and by the way, you did suggest that the explanation for Lursa and Betor was that the weapons were "commonplace but not readily available", whatever the fuck that means.

Yes. But you have to beat or subjugate the fleet to take over an empire.

Nonsense. You need only force its leadership to surrender and/or wipe out its infrastructure. Its military will fall with no infrastructure.

Not before killing L&B. A single 50yo BOP is not going to outlast a fleet of younger BOPs and Vor'chas and Negh'vars.

Completely evading the point, I see. Go back and read it again, and then answer it.

They have to factor that in when they assess their readiness to take over the Empire. And if they do destroy all the planets or Qo'Nos, or all the infrastructure supporting the fleet, there's functionally no empire left for them to take over. Just ships that want them dead.

Don't be a moron. "Destroy military infrastructure or force leadership to surrender" does not necessarily mean "destroy all the planets and Quo'Nos". The Klingon leadership was on its knees after simply losing Quo'Nos' ozone layer once; they're not as tough as you think they are.

You're kidding, right? Even by Klingon standards they were already common criminals. And most Klingon captains we've met operated like common criminals themselves. And what do they care if they act like criminals? I'd act like a criminal too if I thought it would get me control of an empire. After which I'd silence anyone who called me a criminal, assuming they could find out what I'd done to get the weapon anyway. You're saying this action contradicts scruples that most Klingon officers (let alone the outcast L&B) just don't have.

I'm saying this action is totally unnecessary if any idiot can make this weapon by simply bleeding trilithium out of a warp core and sticking it in a fucking tube, moron. Your thesis is bullshit.

Why the hell do Klingons who're willing to destroy star systems care that other Klingons won't like them for killing a few Feds and ROMULANS? It's like someone who wants to nuke New York hesitating to kill a security guard at a missile silo because killing the guard would be murder. If they have a problem with being criminals, why are they after the weapon?

Debasing oneself to a common criminal in this case means risking their own safety and potentially being caught and destroyed during an incursion into Federation space, moron. You don't do that without need.

And your "commonplace and still hard to get" explanation is so meaningless that it's downright funny.

Money is "commonplace" and I'm not a millionaire. Cocaine is "commonplace" and I don't know where to buy it. Cars are "commonplace" and some people don't have the means to buy them.

So? You're not a former head of an entire rebellion either. They would have more than enough connections to get such things if they were commonplace.

There's no point in trying to prove that starkilling tech is "common" when nobody has decided what does or doesn't constitute "common." It's like debating whether a ship is "fast." The word is meaningless and a stance on the question is totally subjective. You can't debate something like that. You can debate what its actual quantitative speed might be, or whether it's faster than another ship. But you can't debate "fast."

You can, however, point out that they are extremely rare, and were not used in many, many incidents where mass destruction was perfectly palatable. For example, the incident with Martok where you bullshitted a flare into a supernova demonstrates what I'm talking about; their chance of success would have been far higher with one of these "commonplace" torpedoes of yours. Similarly, why send a whole fleet of ships in "The Die is Cast" if one ship with a supernova torp would have done the job? Why would the Dominion risk one of its own founders in a ridiculously convoluted scheme to deliver one of these weapons if they had lots of them, and could have simply mounted them on dozens of ships at once, thus easily overwhelming DS9's ability to intercept? Your thesis falls apart upon closer examination, and you know it.

Are you saying starkillers aren't common compared to some other weapon?

Wow, you finally figured it out. Congratulations.

Straha wrote:

Enola Straight wrote:Dr. Timicin wasn't attempting to make the star go boom.

His home star had reached the end of its fusion cycle; it ran out of hydrogen fuel, they wanted to find a similar star to test his theory of re-initiating fusion using helium as a fuel.

Something went wrong with the calculations, and star go boom.

So? The end was that it still went boom! Now theoretically you could use his research to make other stars go BOOM, and thus wield a pretty hefty weapon.

Other helium stars.

The Nomad wrote:Wouldn't an older star be actually more stable than a younger one ?

No... after a certain time ALL stars become "unstable"... most just become very large ( red giants ) before they "switch off", but only a few of them have the physical ability to go supernova.

ggs wrote:

Luzifer's right hand wrote:The burden of proof is on you.
Prove that trilithium without Sorans research can destroy a sun.

Someone doesnt understand how the burden of proof works or most likely doesnt know how to express it.

Actually, he knows very well how the burden of proof works. He provided a quote from Soran which explicitly states that trilithium is worthless without the knowledge of how to make it into a weapon. She claims that you can just stick trilithium in a torpedo, send it into a star and get the desired effect. This is directly contradicted by a canon quote, so she must provide some sort of evidence showing that this quote is inaccurate.

Trilithium itself is common. It just near imposible to use it in a safe manor.

This makes it very very difficult to use as a weapon, since it is about as volatile as nitroglycerin and with a 'large' explosive yield.

The problem is not causing Trilithium to explode, but preventing it from exploding long enough todo something usefull.

This makes no sense. Warp cores bleed trilithium, and if the substance was really as volatile as you make it out to be, warp cores would be exploding a lot more frequently. Unless, of course, the Federation has a way to stabilize and contain trilithium, which would be a requirement for proper operation of the core. If they had such a containment method, according to you, they (or anyone else with warp technology) could make a trilithium torpedo.

But again, Soran says that, without his research, making the weapon is impossible. There's more to it than containing the reactants. This is hardly surprising. The existence of an element/substance which can halt all fusion in a star within minutes upon being introduced in amounts which are literally insignificant compared to the mass of a star is an absurd proposition. Claiming that the mere introduction of any material into a star's surface (where the fusion doesn't even take place) can simply bring all fusion in the star to a halt borders on lunacy and utter scientific ineptitude.