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This thread idea came from Mike Wong's assessment of the Federation in which he characterizes Martok as a fanatic. I just see him as a dedicated soldier. What are your thoughts?

He's a fanatic. Martok is like any stereotypical klingon - he obsesses over "honour," fights poorly, always celebrates with a keg of Bloodwine, doesn't mind excessive casualties so long as they achieve a "glorious" victory etc.

I never saw him as a fanatic, just an enthusiastic dedicated soldier.

Gandalf wrote:I never saw him as a fanatic, just an enthusiastic dedicated soldier.

Except that he's unprofessional. In "tears of the prophets" he takes his wing of ships to attack the Jemmies at that Cardie system. Instead of co-ordinating with Starfleet and the Romulans, he basically rushes at them all gung-ho and with no real tactical competence. Accordingly, a lot of his ships get destroyed or knocked out of commission.

The distinction between 'fanatic' and 'enthused, dedicated soldier' is a fine one, but you can be dedicated and enthusiastic at the same time as being professional, while fanatics can't see beyond the glory of the kill, the 'honour' of victory etc. All Martok had to do was slow down, let the Jemmies come to him, and then he'd have more firepower because Starfleet and Romulan Warbirds could lend their firepower to the effort.

Cpl Kendall wrote:This thread idea came from Mike Wong's assessment of the Federation in which he characterizes Martok as a fanatic. I just see him as a dedicated soldier. What are your thoughts?

Could you possiby add an 'undecided' option to the poll?

JME2 wrote:

Cpl Kendall wrote:This thread idea came from Mike Wong's assessment of the Federation in which he characterizes Martok as a fanatic. I just see him as a dedicated soldier. What are your thoughts?

Could you possiby add an 'undecided' option to the poll?

If a moderator could do that I'd appriciate it. I can't seem to do it.

Martok is fanatic since he lacks professionalism.

Stofsk wrote:

Gandalf wrote:I never saw him as a fanatic, just an enthusiastic dedicated soldier.

Except that he's unprofessional. In "tears of the prophets" he takes his wing of ships to attack the Jemmies at that Cardie system. Instead of co-ordinating with Starfleet and the Romulans, he basically rushes at them all gung-ho and with no real tactical competence. Accordingly, a lot of his ships get destroyed or knocked out of commission.

His attack wing was the closest, any real co-ordination would have taken too long. And the Jem' Hadar weren't far away. (Four seconds roughly between the end of his conversation with Sisko and the collision between their ships.)

Gandalf wrote:His attack wing was the closest, any real co-ordination would have taken too long.

So in other words, he sacrificed safety for expediency, and lost... how many ships? It was like a dozen, or more.

And the Jem' Hadar weren't far away. (Four seconds roughly between the end of his conversation with Sisko and the collision between their ships.)

So? There were a number of scene cuts from the time Martok said "We'll get 'em!" to the first Jemmie beetle colliding with a Vor'cha.

The battlegroup wasn't that far apart, the Klingons were closest because they happened to be on the flank side of the fleet which the Jemmies were coming towards. If they had stayed and waited the Warbirds and War Galaxies could've opened up and destroyed the bettles. At least, the number of casualties could conceivably be lessened.

There's only one real explanation for this behaviour on Martok's side - he was reckless and unprofessional, characteristics of a fanatic.

I voted yes but I think that from a Klingon perspective that Martok is not a fanatic and could be seen to be slightly cautious. I think he improves during The Left Hand of Destiny duology but he's still a post TOS Klingon and their sense of tactics hardly ever seems to be well thought out.

Stofsk wrote:He's a fanatic. Martok is like any stereotypical klingon - he obsesses over "honour," fights poorly, always celebrates with a keg of Bloodwine, doesn't mind excessive casualties so long as they achieve a "glorious" victory etc.

Uh-huh? And so he doesn't dis-like Gowron for wasting klingon life?? Oh wait he did.

Crazedwraith wrote:

Stofsk wrote:He's a fanatic. Martok is like any stereotypical klingon - he obsesses over "honour," fights poorly, always celebrates with a keg of Bloodwine, doesn't mind excessive casualties so long as they achieve a "glorious" victory etc.

Uh-huh? And so he doesn't dis-like Gowron for wasting klingon life?? Oh wait he did.

That really tells you nothing. The IJA had many commanders removed for wasting their men's lives yet there's no doubt that the whole organization was fanatical.

Stofsk wrote:

Gandalf wrote:His attack wing was the closest, any real co-ordination would have taken too long.

So in other words, he sacrificed safety for expediency, and lost... how many ships? It was like a dozen, or more.

And the Jem' Hadar weren't far away. (Four seconds roughly between the end of his conversation with Sisko and the collision between their ships.)

So? There were a number of scene cuts from the time Martok said "We'll get 'em!" to the first Jemmie beetle colliding with a Vor'cha.

The battlegroup wasn't that far apart, the Klingons were closest because they happened to be on the flank side of the fleet which the Jemmies were coming towards. If they had stayed and waited the Warbirds and War Galaxies could've opened up and destroyed the bettles. At least, the number of casualties could conceivably be lessened.

There's only one real explanation for this behaviour on Martok's side - he was reckless and unprofessional, characteristics of a fanatic.

There were (presumably) all 5 squadrons heading for the fleet, what would have happened if they tried their ramming strategy on the Warbirds or GCS'? Martok had to get in there with smaller, more expendable ships before they could neutralise the larger ships.

Martok's diversion also bought the fleet some time, they knew the Orbital Weapons Platforms could come online at any moment.

Gandalf wrote:There were (presumably) all 5 squadrons heading for the fleet, what would have happened if they tried their ramming strategy on the Warbirds or GCS'?

But Gandalf, Martok broke the fleet's firepower by a third (if we assume the battlegroup was made of equal number of units); had he stayed and waited, all those GCS's and Warbirds (not to mention the other escort ships who would have interdicted the Jemmies) could have handled the bettles. They would have still lost ships, but not to the same extent that the Klingons did.

Martok had to get in there with smaller, more expendable ships before they could neutralise the larger ships.

But those smaller, expendable ships would still be there, running interdiction for the battlegroup. Only this time, you would have more firepower from the GCS's and Warbirds, in addition to the Vor'Cha klingons. Like I said before, the decision to break from the fleet and rush headlong against the incoming beetles was a reckless one, and it cost the Klingons a lot of damage.

Martok's diversion also bought the fleet some time, they knew the Orbital Weapons Platforms could come online at any moment.

If that's the case, it makes sense to keep the battlegroup unbroken - the more concentrated firepower you can deliver to the target, the quicker they'll fall. Also if Martok hadn't broken from the fleet and made his gung ho rush against the Jemmies, the losses the fleet might have sustained from the kamikazes would presumably be lessened. If so, then those ships could be used to kill the OWPs that much sooner before they came online.

Bear in mind that the Jemmies were attempting to divert the battlegroup's attention, and they succeeded - those weapon platforms came online and starting chewing up the fleet something shocking. The purpose of strategy is not to do what your enemy wants you to do, but to make him do what you want him to do. Why split the fleet a third of its strength and tell them to face a diversionary force? Better to wait for them to come to you, then kill them. The losses you sustain would be lighter in comparison, and you won't miss any ships that need to be there for the attack on the OWPs.

Crazedwraith wrote:

Stofsk wrote:He's a fanatic. Martok is like any stereotypical klingon - he obsesses over "honour," fights poorly, always celebrates with a keg of Bloodwine, doesn't mind excessive casualties so long as they achieve a "glorious" victory etc.

Uh-huh? And so he doesn't dis-like Gowron for wasting klingon life?? Oh wait he did.

That refutes my statement... how? Martok wasn't insane like Gowron, who spent his men's lives like pennies in a piggy bank. Martok still made reckless decisions that cost men's lives, when he could have chosen differently - he just didn't sacrifice their lives needlessly and excessively, which is what Gowron did.

Perhaps to determine if Martok is a fanatic, we should look at some of his other actions during the war: Remember that "cavalry raid" of his (forget episode name), before which he made a stupid excuse why the Defiant should not accompany has little fleet of 5 BoP's?

Unprofessionalism and fanaticism are almost given traits of Klingon soldiers and commanders. Yes, I do believe Martok is a fanatic, but when compared to the average Klingon warrior, he wasn't too bad, IMHO...

Ma Deuce wrote:Perhaps to determine if Martok is a fanatic, we should look at some of his other actions during the war: Remember that "cavalry raid" of his (forget episode name), before which he made a stupid excuse why the Defiant should not accompany has little fleet of 5 BoP's?

It would have worked if Kor wasn't there.

Gandalf wrote:

Ma Deuce wrote:Perhaps to determine if Martok is a fanatic, we should look at some of his other actions during the war: Remember that "cavalry raid" of his (forget episode name), before which he made a stupid excuse why the Defiant should not accompany has little fleet of 5 BoP's?

It would have worked if Kor wasn't there.

They didn't actually lose any ships to Kor's incopetence (though one was badly damaged by ground fire, resulting in the death of it's captain and 1st officer, and this would not have happened if Kor had not ordered the second attack run). As I recall, one was slagged by a Galor in orbit, and the other was destroyed when Kor used it to delay the fleet of Jemmie ships chasing them, buying the remaining BoPs enough time to reach friendly territory.

In any case, I was actually referring to Martok's excuse not to take the Defiant: "Perhaps the Defiant should remain here, in case the Jem'Hadar try their own 'cavalry raid'" Where is the logic in that? the Federation had plenty of ships on hand to stop any such raid ( they mustered 7 in addition to the Defiant to "greet" any Jem'Hadar pursuers Martok would be bringing back with him), and since the Defiant was still the only Federation ship with a cloaking device, plus the fact that it was much more powerful than a BoP while still being very fast and maneuravable, it would have been an ideal addition to Martok's raid. The only reason I can see for Martok choosing to leave the Defiant behind was Klingon pride and chauvanism...

Ma Deuce wrote:

Gandalf wrote:

Ma Deuce wrote:Perhaps to determine if Martok is a fanatic, we should look at some of his other actions during the war: Remember that "cavalry raid" of his (forget episode name), before which he made a stupid excuse why the Defiant should not accompany has little fleet of 5 BoP's?

It would have worked if Kor wasn't there.

They didn't actually lose any ships to Kor's incopetence (though one was badly damaged by ground fire, resulting in the death of it's captain and 1st officer, and this would not have happened if Kor had not ordered the second attack run). As I recall, one was slagged by a Galor in orbit, and the other was destroyed when Kor used it to delay the fleet of Jemmie ships chasing them, buying the remaining BoPs enough time to reach friendly territory.

In any case, I was actually referring to Martok's excuse not to take the Defiant: "Perhaps the Defiant should remain here, in case the Jem'Hadar try their own 'cavalry raid'" Where is the logic in that? the Federation had plenty of ships on hand to delay any such raid ( they mustered 7 in addition to the Defiant to "greet" any Jem'Hadar pursuers Martok would be bringing back with him), and since the Defiant was still the only Federation ship with a cloaking device, plus the fact that it was much more powerful than a BoP while still being very fast and maneuravable, it would have been an ideal addition to Martok's raid. The only reason I can see for Martok choosing to leave the Defiant behind was Klingon pride and chauvanism...

Or that the writers simply wanted this to be a Klingon story. Besides, DS9 was able to destroy fifty Dominion ships during the assualt at the end of season 5 and they shouldn't have any trouble repulsing a small task-force.