TNG "Martian Defense Perimeter"

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-01-22 04:47am

In Best of Both Worlds Part 2, as the Cube approaches Earth, it swings past Mars, where three ships attempt to intercept it (and are promptly vaped).

Do we know anything about those ships?

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-01-22 04:50am

They were small. And got vaped. I think that just about covers it...

Unless there's something in the various tech manuals? Not canon though... neither are novels... I can't remember these vessels appearing in a show ever again.

Why do you ask?

Post by **Gandalf** » 2004-01-22 04:55am

The TNG Companion by Larry Nemecek mentions they're unmanned.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-01-22 11:12am

Pure speculation, but they may have been WMD warheads that Starfleet has on hand for dealing with large scale enemy assaults on Sector 001 when fleet support is not immediately available.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2004-01-22 12:04pm

quite possibly the most unintentionally funny scene in TNG. 3 little glowing space turds get vaped... oh no! the Martian Defense Perimeter! I giggled my nuts off then at the cheezeyness and i was only 13 at the time! Even then i knew! lol

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-01-22 12:55pm

I found that amusing as well.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-01-22 12:57pm

The Techmanual or someone's commentary mentioned that they were essentially unmanned flying bombs. I guess the Federation was otying with V-1 adn V-2 rockets or something. UGH. I am so glad those little commie bastards became militaristic.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-01-22 01:52pm

Stravo wrote:The Techmanual or someone's commentary mentioned that they were essentially unmanned flying bombs. I guess the Federation was otying with V-1 adn V-2 rockets or something. UGH. I am so glad those little commie bastards became militaristic.

Must have been commentary, I've read the TNG TM through and through.

I was just curious, someone else was talking about the Sol system defenses and I wondered just what the hell the "Martian defense perimeter" was supposed to be anyway.

The concept of unmanned bombs doesn't seem too bad for use as an augmentation to planetary defense to me.

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » 2004-01-22 02:21pm

It would work better if based on the Moon or Earth itself. If that "security perimeter" is based in Mars the enemy can come from the other side of its orbit, from above or from behind. Remember that outer space is in 3-D.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-01-22 02:29pm

Uraniun235 wrote:
Stravo wrote:The Techmanual or someone's commentary mentioned that they were essentially unmanned flying bombs. I guess the Federation was otying with V-1 adn V-2 rockets or something. UGH. I am so glad those little commie bastards became militaristic.
Must have been commentary, I've read the TNG TM through and through.

I was just curious, someone else was talking about the Sol system defenses and I wondered just what the hell the "Martian defense perimeter" was supposed to be anyway.

The concept of unmanned bombs doesn't seem too bad for use as an augmentation to planetary defense to me.

As an augmentation yes, but as the sole means of defense that is absurd. Where were all the starships? Why didn't Earth have its own defensive fleet? Hell they were scrambling to put together a fleet of less than 40 ships and were begging for the Klingons to send warships. The Federation of the TNG era was a military joke whose flagship and top of the line warship was essentially a luxury liner.

The ST:TMP novelization at leats mentioned planetary shields, but the TNG era even seems to lack this simple defense as we see with the attack on Starfleet command.

Enola Straight · Post by **Enola Straight** » 2004-01-22 02:29pm

Unmanned tactical drone...lesse what it likely has:

Phasers and a few photon torpedoes,
Shields, transporter suppression field, tractor beam,
Navigation and targeting computers,
impulse engines.

And as a last resort, kamikaze run on the target.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-01-22 02:36pm

Are the Feds capable of planetary shielding? Perhaps this is a subject for a separate thread.

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2004-01-22 02:42pm

I was not surprised, that sector 001 was so poorly defended, given the incompetence of Starfleet.

I don't think they have planetary shields. Look how awed the Enterprise crew was, when a planet dropped it's not very good cloaking, and that this would be beyond thier technology.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-01-22 02:43pm

Rogue 9 wrote:Are the Feds capable of planetary shielding? Perhaps this is a subject for a separate thread.

There are several instances of it in TOS era, most prominent being For Whom Gods Destroy. So in the TOS era up to TMP period which mentions Earth planetary shields that will be overwhlemed by Vger's plasma weapons but TNG era AFAIK does not mention planetary shields at all.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-01-22 04:37pm

Stravo wrote:The ST:TMP novelization at leats mentioned planetary shields, but the TNG era even seems to lack this simple defense as we see with the attack on Starfleet command.

Is it possible they had them, but the shields were simply overwhelmed by the attack?

Where were all the starships? Why didn't Earth have its own defensive fleet?

They were probably amongst the starships sent to and lost at Wolf 359. Remember, Admiral Hanson said they were making their stand at Wolf 359; attacking such an enemy piecemeal would be foolish, as two separate attacks of half strength each would probably not be as effective as a single strike with everything they had.

My guess would be that the bulk of the fleet at Wolf 359 was comprised of starships from and immediately surrounding the Terran system. Remember that the Borg were heading for Earth at Warp 9.6, and that the Ent-D couldn't maintain that speed all the way back to Earth; if Starfleet's fastest ship can't keep up with them, I doubt the rest of the fleet would be able to get to Earth in time either.

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2004-01-22 06:01pm

Uraniun235 wrote: Is it possible they had them, but the shields were simply overwhelmed by the attack?

I can't speak to planetary shields, but I strongly suspect that Starfleet HQ has shields over it. I don't recall that they're ever mentioned or not, but it'd seem reasonable, given the totally pathetic spectacle left in the wake of the "Breen attack."

My guess would be that the bulk of the fleet at Wolf 359 was comprised of starships from and immediately surrounding the Terran system. Remember that the Borg were heading for Earth at Warp 9.6, and that the Ent-D couldn't maintain that speed all the way back to Earth; if Starfleet's fastest ship can't keep up with them, I doubt the rest of the fleet would be able to get to Earth in time either.

This is an excellent point.

Based on canon warp velocity figures, I once calculated the maximum distance from which a fast Starfleet ship could reach Wolf 359 in time. As is typical of me, I didn't save those figures, but they're easy enough to reproduce.

Starfleet had 4 days notice, so if we assume they hauled ass in deploying ships to the area, the only question is how fast the ships are. Most of them were old, pretty crude ships...with perhaps one or two exceptions, I'd say all are well below the E-D's max "safe" warp speed of ~2700c. (Short-burst speeds are several times that, but those can't be sustained very long...hence, short-burst speed

Even travelling above warp nine for a few days taxes a GCS's warp drive, as we learn in "The Chase," so assuming much beyond warp nine might be too generous as well.)

That makes ~2,700c a firm upper-limit for our purposes, so the ships at Wolf 359 travelled less than 30 ly/279 trillion km to intercept the Borg in time.

As far as the defense perimeter drones themselves, some modelers have told me they were little more than a crude kitbash of Typhoon-class sub minis. Maybe it's just a coincidence, but wasn't "The Hunt for Red October" a Paramount film?

That'd mean the TNG model crew would've been able to get ideas from looking around other shops in the Paramount studios. And "BoBW" DID air just a few months after THFRO's run in the theatres...hmmm.

Uhh, anyhow, that doesn't relate to the thing's abilities, but I do find the idea of Capt. Ramius ordering "right full rudder" toward a big Borg cube vaguely amusing

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-01-22 09:02pm

The Hunt for Red October is a Paramount film. Indeed, the sound of the caterpillar drive first engaging can be heard in Star Trek 6 as the Ent-A departs spacedock. It seems kind of weird that they'd have made multiple Typhoon minis, although I suppose that the shot could have been a composite of three shots of a single model.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-01-22 11:26pm

Sean: That only works out to an average speed of Warp 6.8 This is the defense fo Earth here, I think they would push it a bit beyond that. Warp 8 (~5000) strikes me as better (thus everythng in a 55 LY radius), though you certainly know the technology better then me.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-01-22 11:58pm

Wasn't the Federation fighting the Cardassians around the time the Borg struck? If so, then maybe the reason for the lacklustre defence of the Core systems is because most of the ships were engaged on the Cardie front, with only a few token defenders left behind in case the spoonheads made a flank attack. I could be wrong though, I'm not too knowledgable on the first Cardassian war, or when it ended.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-01-23 01:54am

The Federation would have kept a large fleet Earth if the Cardassians were a threat since cloaked Keldons can penetrate Federation defenses and strike at Earth itself.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-01-23 02:52am

evilcat4000 wrote:The Federation would have kept a large fleet Earth if the Cardassians were a threat since cloaked Keldons can penetrate Federation defenses and strike at Earth itself.

Those cloaked Keldons were Obsidian Order, and seemed to be a product of the Tal'Shiar/Obsidian Order alliance. I don't think they had cloaking technology back then (or afterwards, for that matter). Also, I doubt the cardassians had the range necessary to hit so far into Federation territory.

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2004-01-23 12:03pm

Uraniun235 wrote:The Hunt for Red October is a Paramount film. Indeed, the sound of the caterpillar drive first engaging can be heard in Star Trek 6 as the Ent-A departs spacedock. It seems kind of weird that they'd have made multiple Typhoon minis, although I suppose that the shot could have been a composite of three shots of a single model.

Cool.

It could've been a composite, or I'm somehow mistaken about the parts involved in making the defense drones. They could be parts from commercial sub model kits (?)...something else I need to investigate further.

Ender:

Sean: That only works out to an average speed of Warp 6.8 This is the defense fo Earth here, I think they would push it a bit beyond that. Warp 8 (~5000) strikes me as better (thus everythng in a 55 LY radius), though you certainly know the technology better then me.

Now, now, that's not true

A 55 LY radius could work. My estimate was based on a quick look at the Canon Database; I think 2,700c came from "Q Who?" and the amount of time it'd take the E-D to get back to the Federation (?). This is yet another little something I need to take a closer look at...

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2004-01-23 01:02pm

Stofsk wrote:
evilcat4000 wrote:The Federation would have kept a large fleet Earth if the Cardassians were a threat since cloaked Keldons can penetrate Federation defenses and strike at Earth itself.
Those cloaked Keldons were Obsidian Order, and seemed to be a product of the Tal'Shiar/Obsidian Order alliance. I don't think they had cloaking technology back then (or afterwards, for that matter). Also, I doubt the cardassians had the range necessary to hit so far into Federation territory.

Agreed on both counts.

I don't recall any specific references to a Cardassian ship's maximum [sustainable] speed, but the original reason I investigated the Wolf 359 fleet's range (see above) was to address questions like, "Based on the paltry fleet we see in the Wolf system, why haven't the Romulans/Cardassians/Klingons attacked Earth before?"

As far as the Keldons are concerned, when Tain's fleet was about to go through the wormhole, DS9 saw all the ships decloaking. Sisko, Kira and the rest were definitely surprised to see Cardassian ships so equipped.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-01-23 01:26pm

seanrobertson wrote:I don't recall any specific references to a Cardassian ship's maximum [sustainable] speed, but the original reason I investigated the Wolf 359 fleet's range (see above) was to address questions like, "Based on the paltry fleet we see in the Wolf system, why haven't the Romulans/Cardassians/Klingons attacked Earth before?"

According to Enterprise, isn't Earth practically in Klingon and Romulan space as it is, IE the fact that Earth was said to be less than a lightyear from the Klingon homeword and even if we take that with a grain of salt, really really close? Given the rediculous over-centralizing that the Klingons are known to do (after all, the loss of one moon crippled them in ST6) wouldn't that put large amounts of Klingon ships close enough to Earth that a Klingon pissing out an airlock might cause it to rain?

I can't see how if the Klingons and Romulans are that close, they don't have the range to strike at Earth.

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2004-01-23 01:36pm

Gil Hamilton wrote: According to Enterprise, isn't Earth practically in Klingon and Romulan space as it is, IE the fact that Earth was said to be less than a lightyear from the Klingon homeword and even if we take that with a grain of salt, really really close?

Yeah.

The show provides some other pretty sound ways to gauge the NX-01's speed, but those figures still put Qo'nos at ~10 ly from Earth or so. Maybe 12 (great...another thing I need to go investigate!

).

Pretty retarded, I know. I don't know how close Romulus and Earth are supposed to be in ENT, but "Nemesis" gives some indications of the distance, provided you could nail down how fast the Scimitar was (faster than the E-E, but how fast is she? ARGH).

Given the rediculous over-centralizing that the Klingons are known to do (after all, the loss of one moon crippled them in ST6) wouldn't that put large amounts of Klingon ships close enough to Earth that a Klingon pissing out an airlock might cause it to rain? I can't see how if the Klingons and Romulans are that close, they don't have the range to strike at Earth.

You would think definitely so!

That makes one wonder about ENT's canonicity. I vaguely recall that Qo'nos and Earth were pretty far apart in TNG, but the specifics, assuming any exist outside of my imagination, escape me.

That's...5 or 6 things I need to go look up. Shit.