Do you agree with Eddington?

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2004-01-17 01:13pm

Remember when he betrayed the federation, thinking it was a fascist state, and that at least the borg told you they are going to assimilate you, but the Federation is more insidious.

He joined the Maquis to defend them, when the Federation started using thier homes and planets where they had lived and built lives for decades as bargaining chips to the Cardassians. He was always portrayed as a evil traitor, even though perhaps the Federation is not worthy of his loyalty.

FaxModem1 · Post by **FaxModem1** » 2004-01-17 01:54pm

I don't know, never saw the fourth season.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-01-17 03:21pm

The Federation shouldn't have sold out their colonists because they could have easily hammered the Cardassians and not lost any planets to them however everybody’s favourite traitor was taking rubbish.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-01-17 04:22pm

Exactly what did he say?

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-01-17 04:29pm

Exactly what did he say?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-01-17 04:33pm

EDDINGTON
I know you. I was like you once,
but then I opened my eyes... open
your eyes, Captain. Why is the
Federation so obsessed about the
Maquis? We've never harmed you.
And yet we're constantly arrested
and charged with terrorism...
Starships chase us through the
Badlands... and our supporters are
harassed and ridiculed. Why?
(beat, then angry)
Because we've left the Federation,
and that's the one thing you can't
accept. Nobody leaves paradise.
Everyone should want to be in the
Federation.

EDDINGTON (Cont'd)
Hell, you even want the
Cardassians to join. You're only
sending them replicators so that
one day they can take their
"rightful place" on the Federation
Council.
(beat)
You know, in some ways you're
worse than the Borg. At least
they tell you about their plans
for assimilation. You're more
insidious... you assimilate people
and they don't even know it.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-01-17 05:23pm

Hell, I've got to agree with him from, at least from that. The Federation sold them out and continues to despite the fact it should have protected them from the start.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-01-17 06:14pm

Stormbringer wrote:Hell, I've got to agree with him from, at least from that. The Federation sold them out and continues to despite the fact it should have protected them from the start.

While that is true that isn't what his rant is about, he is complaining because the Federation wishes to expand its borders and become more powerful by adding new species and its ultimate goal is a peaceful galaxy, that hardly makes them bad guys.

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2004-01-17 06:24pm

TheDarkling wrote:EDDINGTON:
You know, in some ways you're
worse than the Borg. At least
they tell you about their plans
for assimilation. You're more
insidious... you assimilate people
and they don't even know it.

Ouch.

Though Sisko never said much about the Borg after the series premiere (I recall only one comment about Wolf 359 in "A Time To Stand"), he really hated them. It could've been cool if he exploded at that suggestion, a'la Kirk's "KAAAAAAAHN!"

I don't know if I'd fall in line with Eddington, but he's at least right inasmuch as the Federation hung the DMZ colonies out to dry. The UFP had an obligation to avoid a war with the Cardassians for the "greater good," but their swift capitulation to appease the Union was typically inexcusable.

Burak Gazan · Post by **Burak Gazan** » 2004-01-17 07:59pm

Agree or disagree, having him prick that bloated, self-important windbag of a so-called Emissary was worth seeing

Did I mention how much I hate Sisko??

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-01-17 08:11pm

TheDarkling wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:Hell, I've got to agree with him from, at least from that. The Federation sold them out and continues to despite the fact it should have protected them from the start.
While that is true that isn't what his rant is about, he is complaining because the Federation wishes to expand its borders and become more powerful by adding new species and its ultimate goal is a peaceful galaxy, that hardly makes them bad guys.

Actually, the way they're going about it does make them not so good guys. They abandon their own people to thugs simply to avoid taking a stand. And not only that, they brand the ones that fight against said thugs terrorists and murderers. Still worse yet they're cuddling up to those same thugs! That certainly takes the luster off the Federation right there.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-01-17 09:17pm

Stormbringer wrote: Actually, the way they're going about it does make them not so good guys. They abandon their own people to thugs simply to avoid taking a stand. And not only that, they brand the ones that fight against said thugs terrorists and murderers. Still worse yet they're cuddling up to those same thugs! That certainly takes the luster off the Federation right there.

They branded the Marquis terrorists which is exactly what they where, the Federation sold them out no doubt about it but they chose to live under Cardassian rule then they got bent out of shape when the Cardassians imposed Cardassian rules upon them (which any idiot should have know would have been grossly unfair), some of them were even on the Federation side of the DMZ but once all hell broke loose they also got involved in the fighting.

They had also been indicting legitimate federation commercial traffic outside of the DMZ, they committed terrorist acts against both the Federation and the Cardassian Union, bringing them to justice was the only option.

As for cuddling up to those thugs, by the time the Federation was giving replicators to the Cardassians they were no longer thugs but an actual democratic government that had been smashed by blatant Klingon aggression, their people were starving and their infrastructure smashed yet the Maquis was all to happen to let those people starve.

So to recap, Yes the Federation was wrong to settle with the Cardassians instead of crushing them, this was indicative of the excessive pacifism they showed during TNG, however that does not make them evil and it doesn't make the Maquis the good guys.

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2004-01-17 09:57pm

TheDarkling wrote:
Stormbringer wrote: Actually, the way they're going about it does make them not so good guys. They abandon their own people to thugs simply to avoid taking a stand. And not only that, they brand the ones that fight against said thugs terrorists and murderers. Still worse yet they're cuddling up to those same thugs! That certainly takes the luster off the Federation right there.
They branded the Marquis terrorists which is exactly what they where, the Federation sold them out no doubt about it but they chose to live under Cardassian rule then they got bent out of shape when the Cardassians imposed Cardassian rules upon them (which any idiot should have know would have been grossly unfair), some of them were even on the Federation side of the DMZ but once all hell broke loose they also got involved in the fighting.

They had also been indicting legitimate federation commercial traffic outside of the DMZ, they committed terrorist acts against both the Federation and the Cardassian Union, bringing them to justice was the only option.

As for cuddling up to those thugs, by the time the Federation was giving replicators to the Cardassians they were no longer thugs but an actual democratic government that had been smashed by blatant Klingon aggression, their people were starving and their infrastructure smashed yet the Maquis was all to happen to let those people starve.

So to recap, Yes the Federation was wrong to settle with the Cardassians instead of crushing them, this was indicative of the excessive pacifism they showed during TNG, however that does not make them evil and it doesn't make the Maquis the good guys.

I wish I could get some kind of size/military comparison. They said the writiers do not take into consideration distance with regard to travel times, etc, so there's no canon map of the galaxy, but considering how slow warp drive is, and that the romulans and klingons are in the beta quad, and the feds and cardies in the alpha then they must be near the border of the two quadrants, they did, however, say that it took a few days at warp to get from Bajor to Earth (and I remember in one ep they said Bajor was a few HOURS away from DS9 by shuttlecraft, but in Enterprise they said they could make it to I think Uranus and back in 9 minutes)

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-01-17 10:25pm

Shrykull wrote: I wish I could get some kind of size/military comparison. They said the writiers do not take into consideration distance with regard to travel times, etc, so there's no canon map of the galaxy, but considering how slow warp drive is, and that the romulans and klingons are in the beta quad, and the feds and cardies in the alpha then they must be near the border of the two quadrants, they did, however, say that it took a few days at warp to get from Bajor to Earth (and I remember in one ep they said Bajor was a few HOURS away from DS9 by shuttlecraft, but in Enterprise they said they could make it to I think Uranus and back in 9 minutes)

It takes 2 months to cross the Federation during DS9,and the shuttles going to Bajor move at sub light velocitieis whereas that Enteprise example was what they could cover at Warp 5.

Although I am not sure what you are driving at with wanting that info.

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2004-01-17 10:25pm

Didn't the Federation win their war with the Cardassians? If so, why did they give up any territory? They won. If anything, they should have grabbed some planets from the Cardassians, or failing that, left their border as it was. Surely, they knew what these people would face if left on the Cardassian side of the border. As for the Maquis attacking Federation ships, when did this start, before or after the Federation began helping the Cardassians against them? Did this happen before or after the Cardassians gave their civilians arms and let them massacre ex-Federation colonists? Did this happen before or after Picard decided not to make a fuss about the Cardassians violating the treaty? Also, why did the Cardassians take these worlds instead of asking for uninhabited ones? Are they gluttons for punishment when it comes to truculent ethnic minorities? They can't seriously think people from the Federation are going to meekly accept abuse like that, especially after losing a war to them, to some of the same people living in that area.

The Maquis seem like regular people pushed too far. First, the Federation sold them down the river for no reason. Then the Cardassians turned a blind eye to them being abused. Then after that, the Federation, instead of protesting this or helping them, helps the Cardassians hunt them like dogs. Why should they look on either group as anything but enemies? As for them being terrorists, what do you call the Cardassians who attacked them, political activists? Terrorism, in itself, is really no less moral than warfare in general. I don't expect small-towners in a border area to be able to build fleets of capital ships and wage a proper war.

By the way, when did the Cardassian War take place in relation to 2364 (season 1 TNG)? It seems like, without references to it in dialogue, you'd never know a war was fought.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-01-17 11:03pm

CDiehl wrote:Didn't the Federation win their war with the Cardassians? If so, why did they give up any territory? They won. If anything, they should have grabbed some planets from the Cardassians, or failing that, left their border as it was.

Well the treaty that established the DMZ came about 4 after the end of hostilities, it was less about a peace settlement than redefining the borders to prevent future conflict.

Surely, they knew what these people would face if left on the Cardassian side of the border.

Which is why they asked them to move, they chose to remain and accept Cardassian rule.

As for the Maquis attacking Federation ships, when did this start, before or after the Federation began helping the Cardassians against them? Did this happen before or after the Cardassians gave their civilians arms and let them massacre ex-Federation colonists?

It happened within 2 months of the Maquis being formed (could be closer to one month). However let us not forget they blew up a Cardassian freighter in Bajoran space at a Federation administered space station before that. They also kidnapped Gul Dukat from Deep Space Nine.
Their actions were already questionable before they ever announced their existence.

Did this happen before or after Picard decided not to make a fuss about the Cardassians violating the treaty?

If you refer to "The Wounded" you analysis of the situation is lacking and it was a different treaty.

Also, why did the Cardassians take these worlds instead of asking for uninhabited ones? Are they gluttons for punishment when it comes to truculent ethnic minorities? They can't seriously think people from the Federation are going to meekly accept abuse like that, especially after losing a war to them, to some of the same people living in that area.

I would guess strategic importance was the reason, make the Cardassians fell safe and they won't be future conflict was obviously Federation thinking on the matter.

The Maquis seem like regular people pushed too far. First, the Federation sold them down the river for no reason.

They had a reason it just wasn't well founded in reality.

Then the Cardassians turned a blind eye to them being abused. Then after that, the Federation, instead of protesting this or helping them, helps the Cardassians hunt them like dogs.

The Federation would have pushed their case through legitimate channels (for what good it would have done) but they declared themselves a war against Cardassia.

Why should they look on either group as anything but enemies? As for them being terrorists, what do you call the Cardassians who attacked them, political activists?

Wow I have seen this before, since I don't approve of the actions of Party A I must be best buddies of Party B. I don't excuse the barbaric actions of the Cardassian settlers and their ethnic cleansing campaign and I would like you to point out where you got that impression.

Terrorism, in itself, is really no less moral than warfare in general. I don't expect small-towners in a border area to be able to build fleets of capital ships and wage a proper war.

When they attack non combatants I disapprove, beyond that it is a group's aims I disagree with not its methods.

By the way, when did the Cardassian War take place in relation to 2364 (season 1 TNG)? It seems like, without references to it in dialogue, you'd never know a war was fought.

That is because it hardly bothered the Federation whilst it crippled the Cardies.

The Cardassians were engaged in hostilities with the Federation in 2355 and the treaty was signed in 2367 (yes that is right, during the first 3 seasons of TNG a war was going on and it didn't even get a mention).

Rhoades · Post by **Rhoades** » 2004-01-17 11:32pm

After considering everything, I have to agree with Eddington. While it may be intentional, but many people would see the Federation's motives to conform the galaxy as insidious (with the Federation sees it as the common good). To the Federation, mainly the dominate human portion, seems to conform the rest of the galaxy to their standard. In Tuvok's flashback on the Excelisor (I forget the episode), he made a complaint about this to his bunkmate. Human's the paragon of good virtue... everyone needs to be like us.

Anyone who is not a member of the Federation or decides and leaves, they care little about. The Maqui, being the obvious example, people who were promised to be treated fairly by the Cardassians but when they got beatened, raped, and tortured the Federations sees them as the Bad Guys because they choose to leave the Federation.

And, what's more, remember in ST:Insurrection, the Baku's planet was within Federation yet not members of the Federation. How does the Federation see it? As <i>their</i> planet! That was the justification for their (Admirial Dougherty, the Federation Council) actions and motives throughout the movie.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-01-18 12:49am

In Tuvok's flashback on the Excelisor (I forget the episode), he made a complaint about this to his bunkmate. Human's the paragon of good virtue... everyone needs to be like us.

That was the episode "Flashback". Tuvok eventualy left Starfleet for this reason.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-01-18 02:37am

the Federations sees them as the Bad Guys because they choose to leave the Federation.

No, the Federation sees the Maquis as being the bad guys because they engage in terrorist activities which threaten the peaceful relations between the Cardassians and the Federation.

Yeah, it's a shitty deal for the colonists who moved out there, but relocating some colonists seems like a better deal than continuing to expend Starfleet ships and crew. Don't forget, the Cardassians conceded some territory too. This wasn't a one-sided deal.

The colonists chose to take their chances with the Cardassians. Those chances proved to be bad ones. And now the Federation is evil because they won't bail out the colonists who just got done snubbing them, and who still refuse to leave?

Fuck that and fuck them.

The Federation shouldn't have sold out their colonists because they could have easily hammered the Cardassians and not lost any planets to them however everybody’s favourite traitor was taking rubbish.

Ah, yes, let's slaughter thousands of lives instead of tweaking the border lines a bit. God knows that territory is so vital and such a large part of the Federation.

And yet we're constantly arrested
and charged with terrorism...

So, because it doesn't affect you directly, you can't prosecute them for a crime they committed? Bullshit!

Starships chase us through the
Badlands... and our supporters are
harassed and ridiculed. Why?

Because you're a terrorist organization that preys on legal Cardassian traffic.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-01-18 02:43am

Ahem. You're forgetting how the Cardassians armed their colonists with weaponry, which was against the treaty, and Starfleet did nothing. The Maquis formed in response to that. They took up arms not because they wanted to leave the Federation, but because the Federation refused to protect them. Not only were the Cardassian colonists being armed by their government, but they were allowed and encouraged to perform beatings upon the human colonists. The Cardassians bent the treaty and incited the violence, stop making them out to be the victims here.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-01-18 03:25am

Shit. I knew it couldn't be that easy.

It's been a long time since I watched DS9 myself.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-01-18 03:51am

Uraniun235 wrote:Shit. I knew it couldn't be that easy.

It's been a long time since I watched DS9 myself.

It's a detail which is easy to overlook, particularly since it's rarely mentioned again - subsequent episodes that featured the Maquis depicted them as thug-like terrorists, with their original justification and formation being forgotten. The only way I remembered it is because I re-watched "The Maquis" episodes recently.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-01-18 09:35am

Uraniun235 wrote: Ah, yes, let's slaughter thousands of lives instead of tweaking the border lines a bit. God knows that territory is so vital and such a large part of the Federation.

The Federation should have hammered the Cardies back during the war but instead they pretended the war wasn't even happening, then they settled on a peace treaty that didn't hold until they were forced to give up planets to the Cardies.

Because you're a terrorist organization that preys on legal Cardassian traffic.

Not just Cardassian but Federation as well.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-01-18 09:41am

Stofsk wrote:Ahem. You're forgetting how the Cardassians armed their colonists with weaponry, which was against the treaty, and Starfleet did nothing. The Maquis formed in response to that.

The Maquis were already armed and fighting before they even informed the Federation about the suspected arming process.

They took up arms not because they wanted to leave the Federation, but because the Federation refused to protect them. Not only were the Cardassian colonists being armed by their government, but they were allowed and encouraged to perform beatings upon the human colonists. The Cardassians bent the treaty and incited the violence, stop making them out to be the victims here.

Indeed it is true the Cardassians aren't blameless but the Maquis chose to live under Cardassian rule and they started an unofficial war with them without giving the Federation a chance to lean on the Cardassians.

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2004-01-18 02:26pm

Do you really think it's impossible that the colonists attempted to find relief through official channels before resorting to fighting? I can imagine them pleading, protesting and petitioning the leaders of both sides for months or years, and being ignored or rebuffed at every turn. I can also imagine they didn't bother with all that, assuming the Cardassians encouraged the attacks and the Federation would refuse to aid people no longer their citizens.

As for them attacking Federation cargo ships, it makes sense from their point of view. Those ships were carryng supplies that made the Cardassians' campaign against them feasible. I think the Maquis' goal was to make the Cardassian attacks on them unfeasible, by making them have to pick between helping their own population or aiding the attacks on the colonies. By sending supplies to Cardassia, the Federation was helping to extend the war. The friend of your enemy is also your enemy, so they attack Federation shipping, just as they attack Cardassian shipping. It's sad, but it's all they can do with what they have. Whether those ships were owned by civilians or the government, armed or unarmed, Cardassian or Federation, they were carrying supplies useful to the war against the colonies, making them a legitimate military target. If either group didn't like it, they could stop any time they wanted. The colonists could not do the same if they wanted to live.

Finally, even just sending those supplies, let alone hunting the Maquis dwn for the Cardassians, violates longstanding Federation policy not to take sides in an internal conflict, not to mention the Prime Directive. Thos planets are Cardassin territory and their inhabitants are Cardassian citizens. Therefore, it's an internal matter, and none of the Federation's business. If those colonists were Federation citizens, the Federation would be obligated to defend them. Unless the Maquis, or the Cardassians, were receiving aid from an outside group, the Federation could do nothing, and even if they were receiving such aid, the Federation could only move to interdict that aid, using the events of the Klingon Civil War as precedent.