Enterprise 1/14

[Alan Bolte]

Happened to flip to it randomly, was surprised to find that it's the first since november. Figured I'd missed more than that.
Anyway, was it just me, or was that one pretty damn good? I cringed a couple times, expecting things to get dumb or too predictable, but was pleasantly surprised. And the dialogue didn't get awful. Hmm...
Director: Roxann Dawson
Written By: Manny Coto

[TheDarkling]

It was very TOS-like I thought and I was happy that the aliens didn't simply take over the ship with 5 guys like happened in TNG.

EDIT: And its 14/1, use a proper dating system

[Soontir C'boath]

Isn't Roxann Dawson, Torres?Too bad I don't watch the Ent show much. Is the rerun in sunday?~Jason

[TheDarkling]

Isn't Roxann Dawson, Torres?Too bad I don't watch the Ent show much. Is the rerun in sunday?~Jason

Yes she is, former trek actors often take the directors seat on Enterprise.

[paladin]

I was surprised by the episode myself that I liked it. I'm just wondering if Archer remembered to back up his inform.

[Stofsk]

Ok I'm curious now - what's the episode about?

[TheDarkling]

Ok I'm curious now - what's the episode about?

Spoilers:








Archer and Co pick up some aliens in distress. The aliens worship the creators of the spheres in the Expanse and consider the spheres holy.
Once on board the ship the head religious alien deploys his men to certain places on the ship and threatens to have them blow themselves up (with an internal bomb) unless Archers surrenders, he then orders one of them to blow himself up and he does so.
The religious guys are fighting a way against heretics and wish to use the ship to win the war.
Archer surrenders and the crew is locked up apart from Phlox who has patients to tend to.
The head religious guy asks Archer to choose a crew man to die and Archer chooses himself and asks to die by the onboard execution device - the transporter.
After his apparent death Archer runs about causing power outages and gets Phlox medical data to disable the bombs with.
Meanwhile the heretics appears and a ship to ship fight happens (they are outmatched even at 4 to 1), Archer enlists the aid of an alien to disable the bombs with Phloxs "cure".
Archer frees the MACO's and they retake the ship.
Archer returns them to their world which has been more or less destroyed (many millions dead and no cities left).

[Superman]

Bah, the season premiere of 'Smallville' is on at the same time...

[seanrobertson]

Bah, the season premiere of 'Smallville' is on at the same time...

Surely Supes could coerce Lois to tape ENT.

I have to say it was a pretty good episode. To nitpick the plot, the religious nuts' obsession with stealing a "powerful" ship to destroy the heretics seemed strange: judging by the condition of "all of their major cities," it would seem those aliens had NX-01 level (or better) destructive capabilities anyway.

In fairness, though, we don't know how long their conflict was waged. Since the nuts were gone for, what, 8 months?, the war might've gone on for awhile *shrugs*.

That, and it is a bit much to expect fanatics in question might otherwise be reasonable

[Superman]

B & B seem to think that humans are the pinnacle of technology in Trek. Look at Voyager. Now we're seeing it in ENT.

[Burak Gazan]

Sounds a bit like "Let that be your last Battlefield" TOS episode, updated for the present day

[Patrick Degan]

Ok I'm curious now - what's the episode about?

Spoilers:








Archer and Co pick up some aliens in distress. The aliens worship the creators of the spheres in the Expanse and consider the spheres holy.
Once on board the ship the head religious alien deploys his men to certain places on the ship and threatens to have them blow themselves up (with an internal bomb) unless Archers surrenders, he then orders one of them to blow himself up and he does so.
The religious guys are fighting a way against heretics and wish to use the ship to win the war.
Archer surrenders and the crew is locked up apart from Phlox who has patients to tend to.
The head religious guy asks Archer to choose a crew man to die and Archer chooses himself and asks to die by the onboard execution device - the transporter.
After his apparent death Archer runs about causing power outages and gets Phlox medical data to disable the bombs with.
Meanwhile the heretics appears and a ship to ship fight happens (they are outmatched even at 4 to 1), Archer enlists the aid of an alien to disable the bombs with Phloxs "cure".
Archer frees the MACO's and they retake the ship.
Archer returns them to their world which has been more or less destroyed (many millions dead and no cities left).

Seems more like a rehash of TNG's "Rascals" and V'ger's "Basics" than anything TOS-like.

[Drooling Iguana]

Bah, the season premiere of 'Smallville' is on at the same time...

Shouldn't you just be able to remember what happened? Why bother watching it re-enacted on TV?

[TheDarkling]

Seems more like a rehash of TNG's "Rascals" and V'ger's "Basics" than anything TOS-like.

Well no because 6 Ferengi don't capture the ship for a start, it essentially is an old style TOS morality tale (as was said above it was very similar to “Let that be your last battlefield" but about religion instead of race).

[Patrick Degan]

Seems more like a rehash of TNG's "Rascals" and V'ger's "Basics" than anything TOS-like.

Well no because 6 Ferengi don't capture the ship for a start, it essentially is an old style TOS morality tale (as was said above it was very similar to “Let that be your last battlefield" but about religion instead of race).

Oh, puhLEEZE! Trying to find difference due to specific details does not disprove the argument. The plot mechanics are all too similar —it's almost a template-story at this point.

And comparisons with "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" won't fly either: the uniform gang of religious fanatics are clearly supposed to be metaphorical representations (or in this case, cartoons) of Islamic terrorists. There isn't even the variation of an ideological difference amongst the invading parties aboard the ship.

[TheDarkling]

Oh, puhLEEZE! Trying to find difference due to specific details does not disprove the argument. The plot mechanics are all too similar —it's almost a template-story at this point.

And comparisons with "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" won't fly either: the uniform gang of religious fanatics are clearly supposed to be metaphorical representations (or in this case, cartoons) of Islamic terrorists. There isn't even the variation of an ideological difference amongst the invading parties aboard the ship.

If all "ship gets taken over" episodes are the same then even in your eyes it must be the same as the various TOS episodes that have that premise.

The parallels with "Let that be your last battlefield" are plain to see, hell its that obvious some are calling it a direct rip off, it has far more in common with that episode than either "Rascals" of "basics".

As for the religious wackos you are right that their ideological difference is to simplistic (and a bad point about the episode) but I also don't see the big difference between being white on the left to being white on the right (and neither did Kirk or Spock).

It seems you just don't like the idea of comparing an Enterprise episode to the sacred TOS, I am not bound by such constraints on my objectivity.

[Patrick Degan]

Oh, puhLEEZE! Trying to find difference due to specific details does not disprove the argument. The plot mechanics are all too similar —it's almost a template-story at this point.

And comparisons with "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" won't fly either: the uniform gang of religious fanatics are clearly supposed to be metaphorical representations (or in this case, cartoons) of Islamic terrorists. There isn't even the variation of an ideological difference amongst the invading parties aboard the ship.

If all "ship gets taken over" episodes are the same then even in your eyes it must be the same as the various TOS episodes that have that premise.

And that little bullshit red herring proves what, exactly?

The parallels with "Let that be your last battlefield" are plain to see, hell its that obvious some are calling it a direct rip off, it has far more in common with that episode than either "Rascals" of "Basics".

Because they find a planet where all the people have annihilated one another at the end of the story, eh? Big fucking deal.

As for the religious wackos you are right that their ideological difference is to simplistic (and a bad point about the episode) but I also don't see the big difference between being white on the left to being white on the right (and neither did Kirk or Spock).

The main difference this time is that there aren't even any representative heretics among the bunch who invade the Boobyprize. You could as easily plug in the renegade Ferengi or the Kazons into this script and it would make little material difference. The plot-points track the same.

It seems you just don't like the idea of comparing an Enterprise episode to the sacred TOS, I am not bound by such constraints on my objectivity.

Appeal to Motive fallacy and a pretty clumsy one at that. When you see a Trek episode which recycles not only the same general plot as several past episodes but the same plot-points, you have a clear example of an episode which is nothing but a Nth-iteration rehash. To argue otherwise is akin to trying to argue that the 1985 western Pale Rider isn't essentially a carbon-copy remake of 1953's Shane, differing only in minor details and nothing more.

[TheDarkling]

And that little bullshit red herring proves what, exactly?

Your allegation was it was just another generic ships gets take over episode, if tat is true then it has just as much in common with the examples of that in TOS (Let that be your last battlefield, Space Seed, By any other Name, That which survives and so on) of course I disagree that the ship getting take over is enough to define an episode however obviously from your view point it is.

Because they find a planet where all the people have annihilated one another at the end of the story, eh? Big fucking deal.

Nope because the ship is dragged into battle between two sides which have a trivial quarrel with each other and in the end that trivial quarrel ends up destroying the planet making the war pointless anyway.

That is far more similar that Ferengi capture ship for Profit or ship taken over by a macroscopic virus which had no motive at all..

The main difference this time is that there aren't even any representative heretics among the bunch who invade the Boobyprize. You could as easily plug in the renegade Ferengi or the Kazons into this script and it would make little material difference. The plot-points track the same.

They track far better with "Let that be...." which was my point.
As for no heretic being on board, was it really necessary? We had people who were essentially questioning the orthodox view (probably far more than the heretics).

Appeal to Motive fallacy and a pretty clumsy one at that.

Understanding why idiocy occurs is a hobby of mine.

[Patrick Degan]

And that little bullshit red herring proves what, exactly?

Your allegation was it was just another generic ships gets take over episode, if tat is true then it has just as much in common with the examples of that in TOS (Let that be your last battlefield, Space Seed, By any other Name, That which survives and so on) of course I disagree that the ship getting take over is enough to define an episode however obviously from your view point it is.

Too bad for that rambling little argument of yours that this was not the point I was making.

Because they find a planet where all the people have annihilated one another at the end of the story, eh? Big fucking deal.

Nope because the ship is dragged into battle between two sides which have a trivial quarrel with each other and in the end that trivial quarrel ends up destroying the planet making the war pointless anyway.

Except the other side of this conflict is never represented by any of the intruders who board the ship. Simply mentioning that there's a faction they happen to be opposed to and showing their dead planet afterward does not make the episode a parallel to LTBYLB anymore than Michael Morarity shooting down Richard Dysart who's about to bushwhack Clint Eastwood makes Pale Rider a remake of A Fistful Of Dollars instead of Shane —whose plot it follows almost point-for-point.

That is far more similar that Ferengi capture ship for Profit or ship taken over by a macroscopic virus which had no motive at all..

Bullshit. The motive of the invading group has exactly zero relevance to the issue of whether or not two ostensibly different scripts follow the same plot template point-for-point. And the macroscopic virus episode was never one I was citing as an example of anything, so I've no idea what point you think you're making by mentioning it at all.

The main difference this time is that there aren't even any representative heretics among the bunch who invade the Boobyprize. You could as easily plug in the renegade Ferengi or the Kazons into this script and it would make little material difference. The plot-points track the same.

They track far better with "Let that be...." which was my point.

Which they don't, and therefore amounts to a point which makes no point.

As for no heretic being on board, was it really necessary? We had people who were essentially questioning the orthodox view (probably far more than the heretics).

Which means exactly dick —naturally the crew will "question" the fanatics' motives, just as members of the Enterprise crew "questioned" the motives of the Ferengi who invaded their ship in TNG's "Rascals". You keep arguing a minor detail while ignoring the larger fact that the script in this episode follows the same fucking plot template point-for-point; the same as every malfunctioning holodeck story ever seen. The little specific details are trivial at best; they're all just the same episode with a different set of characters and a different holodeck fantasy plugged in.

Appeal to Motive fallacy and a pretty clumsy one at that.

Understanding why idiocy occurs is a hobby of mine.

Talk to yourself a lot then, do you?

[TheDarkling]

Except the other side of this conflict is never represented by any of the intruders who board the ship. Simply mentioning that there's a faction they happen to be opposed to and showing their dead planet afterward does not make the episode a parallel to LTBYLB

In LTBYLB the other side was almost exactly the same except for a minor cosmetic difference, the same was true here ( 10 day creation myth instead of 9).

Bullshit. The motive of the invading group has exactly zero relevance to the issue of whether or not two ostensibly different scripts follow the same plot template point-for-point. And the macroscopic virus episode was never one I was citing as an example of anything, so I've no idea what point you think you're making by mentioning it at all.

Ship taken over by a macroscopic virus is still a ship taken over, it has as much in common with chosen realm as Basics does (which involves the crew being removed from the ship and a lone Sociopath saving the day).

Which they don't, and therefore amounts to a point which makes no point.

Then I guess myself and the rest of the trek watching community disagree with you (and no that isn't an appeal to popularity just stating that we obviously have a difference of opinion).

Which means exactly dick —naturally the crew will "question" the fanatics' motives, just as members of the Enterprise crew "questioned" the motives of the Ferengi who invaded their ship in TNG's "Rascals". You keep arguing a minor detail while ignoring the larger fact that the script in this episode follows the same fucking plot template point-for-point; the same as every malfunctioning holodeck story ever seen. The little specific details are trivial at best; they're all just the same episode with a different set of characters and a different holodeck fantasy plugged in.

And again if that is your opinion then every single ship gets taken over episode from TOS forward is the same, who cares for minor details about motive, method, characters and message.

Talk to yourself a lot then, do you?

That was lame, if you are going to try to be witty at least put some effort in.

[Patrick Degan]

Except the other side of this conflict is never represented by any of the intruders who board the ship. Simply mentioning that there's a faction they happen to be opposed to and showing their dead planet afterward does not make the episode a parallel to LTBYLB

In LTBYLB the other side was almost exactly the same except for a minor cosmetic difference, the same was true here ( 10 day creation myth instead of 9).

In LTBYLB, the racial conflict between the two sides of that cultural divide was fought out directly aboard the Enterprise by the two guest characters. The mob who invade this watered-down version of the Enterprise in this outing could be replaced by any group of monolithic cartoon aliens-of-the-week running on whatever motivation happens to fit. They're nothing but the plot-drivers and nothing more than that. The script's borrowing of the climactic twist from LTBYLB adds no more significance than if the aliens were knobby-headed profiteers instead of knobby-headed religious fanatics or if their skin was purple with yellow polka-dots instead of black on one side and white on the other.

Bullshit. The motive of the invading group has exactly zero relevance to the issue of whether or not two ostensibly different scripts follow the same plot template point-for-point. And the macroscopic virus episode was never one I was citing as an example of anything, so I've no idea what point you think you're making by mentioning it at all.

Ship taken over by a macroscopic virus is still a ship taken over, it has as much in common with Chosen Realm as Basics does (which involves the crew being removed from the ship and a lone Sociopath saving the day).

Nice little Red Herring. Ignoring the point does not make it vanish, no matter how much you wish it did.

Which they don't, and therefore amounts to a point which makes no point.

Then I guess myself and the rest of the trek watching community disagree with you (and no that isn't an appeal to popularity just stating that we obviously have a difference of opinion).

That is indeed an Appeal to Popularity. Who the fuck do you think you're kidding? "Everybody else sees it my way, therefore you're wrong" is what that boils down to —nevermind that you really cannot know just what "the whole Trek community" actually thinks.

Which means exactly dick —naturally the crew will "question" the fanatics' motives, just as members of the Enterprise crew "questioned" the motives of the Ferengi who invaded their ship in TNG's "Rascals". You keep arguing a minor detail while ignoring the larger fact that the script in this episode follows the same fucking plot template point-for-point; the same as every malfunctioning holodeck story ever seen. The little specific details are trivial at best; they're all just the same episode with a different set of characters and a different holodeck fantasy plugged in.

And again if that is your opinion then every single ship gets taken over episode from TOS forward is the same, who cares for minor details about motive, method, characters and message.

Man of Straw. I defy you to actually quote me where I say "every ship-takeover episode from TOS onward is the same". Actual quotes, Darkling —not your little bullshit imaginings about my words or items taken out of context.

Understanding why idiocy occurs is a hobby of mine.

Talk to yourself a lot then, do you?

That was lame, if you are going to try to be witty at least put some effort in.

The comeback was worth exactly the same level of effort as your pathetic attempt at an insult.

[Patrick Degan]

To put the issue in sharp relief:

In "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield", the two momentary seizures of the Enterprise by Beale are merely incidental to the main point of the story, which is an up-close examination of the virulence of racism and political oppression as played out in the conflict between Beale and Lokai —with the first incident being the driver for one of the most memorable displays of ruthless nerve on Kirk's part in the entire series.

In "Chosen Realm" (or "Rascals" or "Basics" or whichever TNG/DS9/VGR script written to the same template you care to cite), the identity and character motivations of the invading aliens are merely incidental to the gerbil's habitrail-plot of how one or two series characters gimmick the retaking of the ship. It really makes no essential difference whether the aliens are knobby-headed profiteers or knobby-headed Space Wahabbists, or if their skin is grey, green, black/white or plaid. These are things the writer can mix-and-match and plug in to the template, and has as much meaning as a puddle of brown liquid.

[Patrick Degan]

I will be gone from the boards for the next five days, but will be more than willing to entertain challenge upon my return. Until then...

[TheDarkling]

In LTBYLB, the racial conflict between the two sides of that cultural divide was fought out directly aboard the Enterprise by the two guest characters. The mob who invade this watered-down version of the Enterprise in this outing could be replaced by any group of monolithic cartoon aliens-of-the-week running on whatever motivation happens to fit. They're nothing but the plot-drivers and nothing more than that. The script's borrowing of the climactic twist from LTBYLB adds no more significance than if the aliens were knobby-headed profiteers instead of knobby-headed religious fanatics or if their skin was purple with yellow polka-dots instead of black on one side and white on the other.

Please, we get the setup of what the characters think, the ship is hijacked, they fight and then discover their planet.

The only difference is that the fight with the other side is a ship to ship fight instead of a TK alien powers slugfest and that Archer reclaims his ship through force instead of waiting for the aliens to leave.

Nice little Red Herring. Ignoring the point does not make it vanish, no matter how much you wish it did.

I didn't ignore your point, your point is that ship captured episodes are generic with minor differences being inconsequential, I pointed out that if true then obviously Chosen realm is cut from the same cloth as LTBYLB.

That is indeed an Appeal to Popularity. Who the fuck do you think you're kidding? "Everybody else sees it my way, therefore you're wrong" is what that boils down to —nevermind that you really cannot know just what "the whole Trek community" actually thinks.

You stated I was wrong, I stated myself and others didn't think so I did not however use this fact as a defence of my argument, just as your statement of your view point as fact hardly served to aid your cause.

Man of Straw. I defy you to actually quote me where I say "every ship-takeover episode from TOS onward is the same". Actual quotes, Darkling —not your little bullshit imaginings about my words or items taken out of context.

No you just believe TNG onwards and as I have pointed out the common elements you see in all TNG+ cookie cutter take over episodes also exist in the TOS take over episodes, just because your argument is idiotic and I am pointing that fact out doesn't mean I am distorting your argument only that I am presenting it for what it truly is.

The comeback was worth exactly the same level of effort as your pathetic attempt at an insult.

I wasn't insulting you simply explaining my theorising on why exactly you had come up with such an inane argument.

As for your second post - the racial hatred played out was nothing more than both sides explaining their position, the crew thinking it irrational and then some fighting which is exactly what happened Chosen Realm, it however didn't happen in Rascals and Rascals wasn't a little morality tale however these facts seem to have bypassed you.

[Broomstick]

Sounds a bit like "Let that be your last Battlefield" TOS episode, updated for the present day

That's exactly what I was thinking...

Not identical, of course, but some definite parallels