When did the Federation stop using money?

Mlenk · Post by **Mlenk** » 2004-01-12 05:06pm

Anyone know anything about this?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-01-12 05:21pm

First we really hear of it explcitly is Star Trek First Contact when Picard says they no longer use money. TOS has explicitly said otherwise many times. It is implied in the TNG era on TV but it really is stated in First Contact. Obviously something happened between TUC and TNG that made the Federation economy change radically. This is coupled with an obvious 'pussification' of the Federation that was rectified by Q starting with Q Who when they first meet the Borg.

In an essay I wrote earlier I pointed out how this single encounter with the Borg and the resounding defeat of Wolf 359 spurred a more militaristic bent to the Federation that saved them in time for the Dominion War where they have now emerged as the goliath of the Alpha Quadrant.

FaxModem1 · Post by **FaxModem1** » 2004-01-12 05:26pm

Could you provide a link to your essay Stravo?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-01-12 05:33pm

FaxModem1 wrote:Could you provide a link to your essay Stravo?

Found it, wasn't as long ago as I thought.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=33253

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2004-01-12 05:51pm

Kirk says they don't use money in ST:IV, perhaps only refering to american dollars but it could be the start of the fed: o money brain-bug.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-01-12 06:07pm

Crazedwraith wrote:Kirk says they don't use money in ST:IV, perhaps only refering to american dollars but it could be the start of the fed: o money brain-bug.

The common interpretation of this quote is that in Kirk's time they use credits and not paper money. In ST:TUC McCoy says "I'd pay real money if he's shut up." Obviously hard currency is very rare by his time but not the concept or idea of money as Kirk and Co. mention money, pay and purchasing things thourghout the movies and TV Show. Remember one of the first things Kirk tries to secure in ST:IV is a source of money.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2004-01-12 06:21pm

Probable when Riker joined up with Starfleet, they didn't want to have to pay him money

Actually, I'd say it was probably after 'Undiscovered Country', maybe to get a common credit/value system going with the Klingons

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-01-12 06:22pm

The Neutral Zone, I beleive, is the start of it, though in The Last Outpost, capitalism is happily shit upon.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2004-01-12 07:53pm

In The Voyage Home, CAPT Kirk makes a remark that "they still use money" in the 1980s, although given a few other offhanded remarks in the course of the films (CAPT Scott: "Suits me, I just bought a boat" in The Undiscovered Country; CDR McCoy: "I'd pay real money if he'd shut up", op. cit.; CAPT Kirk: "I sold this house years ago" in Generations) it seems clear that he was in fact referring to cash rather than to capital. The novelisation of The Undiscovered Country features a non-canonical scene wherein the head of a major munitions corporation assures the President of the United Federation of his corporation's support in the event of a war with the Klingon Empire.

The switchover to a Marxist-Leninist system appears to have happened at some point after CAPT Kirk's disappearance in Generations and well before CAPT Picard's total ignorance of investment in "The Neutral Zone".

PUBLIUS

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-01-12 08:02pm

Publius wrote:CAPT Picard's total ignorance of investment in "The Neutral Zone".

And how exactly does he display that? I watched the episode the other day and I must have missed something because I saw no evidence of that.

Trogdor · Post by **Trogdor** » 2004-01-12 08:23pm

TheDarkling wrote:
Publius wrote:CAPT Picard's total ignorance of investment in "The Neutral Zone".
And how exactly does he display that? I watched the episode the other day and I must have missed something because I saw no evidence of that.

I think he's refering to Picard's cluelessness when the guy who was cryogenically frozen for centeries started going on about the stock market.

Personally, I was never sure that the feds had totally stopped using money, especially in the early TNG days. There were always those poker games on the E-D, and they never once mentioned latinum there but it they were gambling. I can also remember the feds occasionally making remarks such as "You're buying" and stuff like that.

Metrion Cascade · Post by **Metrion Cascade** » 2004-01-12 08:32pm

It seems to me that Earth has been communist since the early 22nd or late 21st century, but that most of the Federation is capitalist. So Federation credits are good in most of the Federation, but not on Earth (or any other commie planets that are members).

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-01-12 09:05pm

why would federation credits be good anywhere in the federation except earth? earth is one of the biggest key worlds in the federation, if not the biggest. not being able to use federation credits on their largest member world is kind of . . .well, i dunno, idiotic maybe?

and do you have any sources for your theory that they've been communist since the 22nd century?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-01-12 09:07pm

It should be noted that Communist Russia included, *gasp* a currency and the ability to buy things.

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2004-01-12 10:45pm

In the episode where the guy wants to check his portfolio I thought the business guy was just as bad as Picard. Why the fuck would your porfolio still be around. I dont give a fuck if it was set up in a trust fund to be managed for perpituity. Does not mean its going to be there. Does not mean it lost all value in a market crash or a war.

If I were Picard all I would have said was Earth suffered WW3 and the global financial system collapsed. Sorry buddy, you dont have anything.

Metrion Cascade · Post by **Metrion Cascade** » 2004-01-12 11:30pm

Darth_Zod wrote:why would federation credits be good anywhere in the federation except earth? earth is one of the biggest key worlds in the federation, if not the biggest. not being able to use federation credits on their largest member world is kind of . . .well, i dunno, idiotic maybe?

and do you have any sources for your theory that they've been communist since the 22nd century?

ENT "Carpenter Street" is the only immediate reference I can think of, where Archer mentions that they'll need money (presumably in contrast to his and T'Pol's experiences on 22nd century Earth).

And as for the variable usefulness of money being idiotic, remember with whom you deal. The Federation is a combination of fucked up culture and fucked up government. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of vital interaction between members besides communication. No ships (Starfleet or otherwise) were seen over Earth in "Nemesis," and there are oodles of references to the E-nil and E-D being the only ships (or being the only expected ships) in the vicinity of a given planet, including Earth. Maybe credits can move electronically, but goods can't. Not from system to system. And transporters, IIRC, wouldn't even allow transit from Earth to the Moon. So Earth really could be that isolated from the rest of the Federation economically.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-01-13 01:14am

Trogdor wrote: I think he's refering to Picard's cluelessness when the guy who was cryogenically frozen for centeries started going on about the stock market.

Except that never happens in the episode, I have always heard this about "The Neutral Zone" but I watched it the other day for just this purpose and nothing of that nature occurs.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-01-13 01:17am

TrailerParkJawa wrote: If I were Picard all I would have said was Earth suffered WW3 and the global financial system collapsed. Sorry buddy, you dont have anything.

Indeed and when the guys starts talking about his portfolio Riker looks rather uncomfortable and dodges the issue, I take that to mean he doesn't want to tell the guy that he is stony broke because the Earth got a little too nuke happy.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2004-01-13 01:23am

***Geek Alert****

From the Federation Travel Guide. Yes, I know it isn't canon

The review of Sisko's Creole Kitchen puts this in at least the time frame of DS9. I think the cafe in Paris is the one Picard used to go to and for some reason I think Chez Sandrine has something to do with Janeway. Possibly Ping Chow is from Dr. Bashir's "James Bond" holodeck program.
The Low Note is probably someplace that Riker either liked to go or had in his own holodeck program.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-01-13 01:27am

Metrion Cascade wrote:It seems to me that Earth has been communist since the early 22nd or late 21st century, but that most of the Federation is capitalist. So Federation credits are good in most of the Federation, but not on Earth (or any other commie planets that are members).

This theory has merit (which is why I support the general idea), when Jake and Nog discuss the Federation economics it is Jakes species that comes up ("I'm Human I don't need cash" "it isn't my fault your species abandoned currency based economics") and not the fact that he is a Federation citizen.

My own personal feeling is that private enterprise isn't banned on Earth but it usually has to complete with state owned industry and thus losses, this would also explain the high regard Earth is held in ("return to paradise" as the Chief says), why there are so many Humans in Starfleet (bettering themselves and humanity) and why a lot of Federation ship building goes on there ("free" labour).

Earth seems to be based upon some sort of internally useful voucher system (redeemable at any EarthGov outlet and everybody gets the same amount (or within a very small bracket) no matter their job) but the earning of real currency and private Enterprise isn't banned. So many Humans therefore join Starfleet to earn their "vouchers" in a job they enjoy and the Federation uses Starfleet personnel in less desirable jobs running various bits of the infrastructure because it is the best way to get volunteers, sure you may spend the next three years in a boring job overseeing the power grid, a subspace comms station or construction but it is worth it if after that period you get to experience that adventure you are seek.

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2004-01-13 07:48am

Federation credit, never leave home without it.

1 War GCS - 33 billion credits.
5 Akiras - 150 billion credits.
10 Defiants - 100 billion credits.

Kicking a Dominion Fleet's ass? Priceless.

For everthing else, there's the Klingons.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2004-01-13 12:00pm

Tsyroc wrote:for some reason I think Chez Sandrine has something to do with Janeway. .

Twas. Tom paris had a simultation of it in early season of V'ger.

PackMule · Post by **PackMule** » 2004-01-14 05:42pm

For the life of me I can't remember the name of the episode, but I recall on DS9 once, O'Brien was betting on a game of Darts (IIRC) and getting carried away, and Bashier told him to stop because if he lost it would cost him 3 months of wage credits or something.

Does anyone else remember this? Maybe I'm just going crazy again.

This could point to the fact that crew (maybe just enlisted, not officers) get some sort of wages.

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-01-14 06:01pm

Communism-
A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.
Communism
A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
The Marxist-Leninist version of Communist doctrine that advocates the overthrow of capitalism by the revolution of the proletariat.
communism

\Com"mu*nism\, n. [F. communisme, fr. commun common.] A scheme of equalizing the social conditions of life; specifically, a scheme which contemplates the abolition of inequalities in the possession of property, as by distributing all wealth equally to all, or by holding all wealth in common for the equal use and advantage of all.

Note: At different times, and in different countries, various schemes pertaining to socialism in government and the conditions of domestic life, as well as in the distribution of wealth, have been called communism.

-Dictionary.com

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-01-14 06:19pm

PackMule wrote:For the life of me I can't remember the name of the episode, but I recall on DS9 once, O'Brien was betting on a game of Darts (IIRC) and getting carried away, and Bashier told him to stop because if he lost it would cost him 3 months of wage credits or something.

Does anyone else remember this? Maybe I'm just going crazy again.

I can’t see that in the script anywhere (although the Vulcan Starfleet officer does engage in the betting).