Did the Cardassians have it coming?

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-01-09 03:04am

The Cardassian race is one of the more fascinating civilizations shown on Trek in its nearly 40 years of existence, in due part thanks to their prominence DS9 (Given their culture's similarities to historical ones, I liked to call think of them as 'Nazis in space').

But by the end of DS9, this civilization lay in tatters, the result as a Cardassian tailor put it, 'years of arrogant agression'. Did the Cardassian race deserve what it go? Did they have it coming?

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-01-09 03:29am

In so much as any one group of people deserve the kind of shit that happened to the Cardassians? There's an element of karmic justification for it - I mean, they were arseholes - but didn't some ridiculous number of deaths take place at the end, like 600 million people getting slaughtered by the Jem'Hadar? And then we hear in a season 6 episode that Gul Dukat's occupation of Bajor only killed 3 million of those fundies. It doesn't quite add up, but there you go.

Bah, I liked the Cardassians when they were DS9's villians. It's a shame the writers felt they were inadequate to serve as such, and had to bring in the Maquis (the first time I've ever rooted for the bad guy), then the Dominion (effectively curtailing any exploration of the GQ), then the more bizarre choice of the Klingons (who were only a threat for just over a single season), and finally the Cardassian/Jem'Hadar league (ok, now we're getting back on track), who in the end allied with the Breen (WHO THE FUCK ARE THE BREEN?).

To say that DS9's plot was all over the place is an understatement.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2004-01-09 03:35am

I don't think they did. If you look at it, all the AQ races are agressive in some way. (Michael Eddington sums up the Federation pretty well.) The Cardassians just happened to be on the wrong end of it.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-01-09 03:36am

the cardassian military got what it deserved, but like the nazis their regular citizens were likely simply brainwashed by government propaganda.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-01-09 04:56am

The Cardassians got what they deserved. They fought an massive interstellar war barely years after the war with the Klingons. They made many strategic and tactical errors such as failing to secure the wormhole and using the superiorirty of their Dominion allies to their advantage.

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » 2004-01-09 06:40am

Or being so fucking stupid to backstab aforementioned Dominion allies when the tide of war turned against them BUT the Dominion still had about two or three shitloads of warships in the neighbourhood of their homeworld, particularly when they had first hand knowledge of how much the Founders like treachery.

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » 2004-01-09 09:42am

The Cardassians definitely deserved it. They can't invade Bajor, renege on a treaty with the Federation, ally with hostile powers, and then betray those same powers without paying the price. They're just lucky that the Dominion is stupid. Cardassia Prime should have been turned into a parking lot.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-01-09 10:14am

It is amazing why did not the Female Founder order an orbital bombardent in the final DS9 episode. With the massive fleet that they had in orbit they could have turned Cardassia Prime into a wasteland.

TrekWarsie · Post by **TrekWarsie** » 2004-01-09 10:27am

It would be a bad idea to waste energy doing an orbital bombardment when the Romulans and Klingons could de-cloak to their rears and blow them away before they turn around. Even if Klingon honor prevented them from doing that, the Romulans wouldn't have such restrictions. And there was the fact that she was still on the planet and that if she went into space, there was a real possibility that she would have died in the battle, though a quick death onboard a starship may have been preferable to a slow death due to the disease.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2004-01-09 11:37am

Fuck Parkinglot, how about, sea of glass and radioactive waste land?

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2004-01-09 01:10pm

Um the couldn't turn cardasisa prime into a wastland for one simple reason.
The bloody Jem'Hardar and a founder were still on planet. No reason why theycouldn't beam up the founder though.

Anyway I thought thats what they did? used their starships to blow up cities?? When we see Sisko/ross martok surveying cardassia prime the damage did not look like some thing the Jemmis could do with mere hand weapons.

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2004-01-09 01:50pm

Did the Cardassians deserve what they got? Yes, they deserved to have their sphere of influence and their military forcibly trimmed back, if only because of their choice to give the Dominion a foothold in the Alpha Quadrant. As for their repressive system of government, they deserved part of what they got for that reason too. However, I would not look to the Romulans, Klingons or even the Federation to punish them for it. None of them are better, and may be considered even worse, because they probably have more worlds than Cardassia. It is ironic that Star Trek is considered so progressive, when it portrays a galaxy filled with one-dimensional oppressive governments. You don't see a lot of republics out there.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-01-09 02:49pm

Crazedwraith wrote: Anyway I thought thats what they did? used their starships to blow up cities?? When we see Sisko/ross martok surveying cardassia prime the damage did not look like some thing the Jemmis could do with mere hand weapons.

No the Jem Hadar were going building by building, whether this was some sort of artillery, sub orbital strike craft or placed explosives isn't made clear (to kill 600 million going door to door planting explosives seems somewhat unlikely though).

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-01-09 02:55pm

CDiehl wrote:Did the Cardassians deserve what they got? Yes, they deserved to have their sphere of influence and their military forcibly trimmed back, if only because of their choice to give the Dominion a foothold in the Alpha Quadrant. As for their repressive system of government, they deserved part of what they got for that reason too. However, I would not look to the Romulans, Klingons or even the Federation to punish them for it. None of them are better, and may be considered even worse, because they probably have more worlds than Cardassia. It is ironic that Star Trek is considered so progressive, when it portrays a galaxy filled with one-dimensional oppressive governments. You don't see a lot of republics out there.

Republics are hardly the only just form of government nor does being a republic automatically mean the government is a just one.

The Cardassians had a proper civilian government for about a year and a half until Dukat staged a military coup with Dominion backing (which was only made possibly by the Klingon invasion) so the Cardassian people hardly deserve all the blame.

I would also like to know why the Federation is no better that the other local powers.

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2004-01-09 04:14pm

Under Essays on this site, Darth Wong has an essay in which he contends that the Federation is a communist state. He said it far better than I could, and anything I could say about that would be paraphrasing him. I'd simply describe it as a gilded cage in which the basic right to property is curtailed.

I didn't say I thought republics were perfect or immune to corruption. After all, the US is one, and it is far from perfect. However, of the options out there, a constitutional republic, whose constitution requires its leaders to defend the rights of the individual as a condition of receiving power, is the one I would most prefer to live under, given my choice. The rest are tyrrany of some sort, more about wielding power than protecting people.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2004-01-09 04:34pm

CDiehl wrote:Under Essays on this site, Darth Wong has an essay in which he contends that the Federation is a communist state. He said it far better than I could, and anything I could say about that would be paraphrasing him. I'd simply describe it as a gilded cage in which the basic right to property is curtailed.

I didn't say I thought republics were perfect or immune to corruption. After all, the US is one, and it is far from perfect. However, of the options out there, a constitutional republic, whose constitution requires its leaders to defend the rights of the individual as a condition of receiving power, is the one I would most prefer to live under, given my choice. The rest are tyrrany of some sort, more about wielding power than protecting people.

The idea of communism isn't evil at all. Human nature is what gives it the reputation it has, and we all know the UFP couldn't hurt a genocidal species till they destroyed a couple starships. Why would they hurt their own people?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-01-09 04:55pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote: Why would they hurt their own people?

Because Commies are evilllllllllllllllllllllllll, don't you understand man? We must all fear the red menace.

The Federation isn't communist, Earth seems to lean towards heavy socialism but that is it and if the Federation were the evil commies some dream them up as why would other nations wise to join?

Federation != Communist.

And even so

Communist != Evil

Therefore you have very little evidence for Federation = Evil .

Now CDiehl if you have an actual argument I would be interested in hearing it however if you aren't capable of such I understand.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-01-09 04:59pm

If we were going to stick to the WWII analogy then Cardasia is more like Italy, a wananbe second rate power that joins the wrong side and gets the shit kicked out of it. Now all we need is to see Cardasia Prime in the future after the Federation occupation where Cardasians are busy speeding along mopeds going "Choi."

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-01-09 05:48pm

Stravo wrote:If we were going to stick to the WWII analogy then Cardasia is more like Italy, a wananbe second rate power that joins the wrong side and gets the shit kicked out of it. Now all we need is to see Cardasia Prime in the future after the Federation occupation where Cardasians are busy speeding along mopeds going "Choi."

Unfortunately Stravo, the Cardassians can't equate to the Italians, because there are no Italian women to stare at.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-01-09 05:50pm

Stofsk wrote:
Stravo wrote:If we were going to stick to the WWII analogy then Cardasia is more like Italy, a wananbe second rate power that joins the wrong side and gets the shit kicked out of it. Now all we need is to see Cardasia Prime in the future after the Federation occupation where Cardasians are busy speeding along mopeds going "Choi."
Unfortunately Stravo, the Cardassians can't equate to the Italians, because there are no Italian women to stare at.

Did you see the episode where Quark falls in love with a Cardasian woman? She was HOT. BY far the hottest was the Vulcan gun runner in "The Maquis" MY GOD.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2004-01-09 05:53pm

Stravo wrote:Did you see the episode where Quark falls in love with a Cardasian woman? She was HOT. BY far the hottest was the Vulcan gun runner in "The Maquis" MY GOD.

It is now my duty to inform you that you, Stravo, are now required--BY LAW--to show us pics of these intergalactic hunnies.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-01-09 05:57pm

Stravo wrote:
Stofsk wrote:Unfortunately Stravo, the Cardassians can't equate to the Italians, because there are no Italian women to stare at.
Did you see the episode where Quark falls in love with a Cardasian woman? She was HOT. BY far the hottest was the Vulcan gun runner in "The Maquis" MY GOD.

I can't remember Quark falling in love with a Cardassian girl. I remember Dukat's daughter, and her fling with Garak - she was pretty cute (particularly the first actress, in season 4). And one of the reasons I was on the Maquis's side was because of the hot Vulcan girl that ran guns for them. Makes me want to be a freedom fighter: "Let me liberate you from that outfit!"

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-01-09 06:11pm

Stravo wrote: Did you see the episode where Quark falls in love with a Cardasian woman? She was HOT. BY far the hottest was the Vulcan gun runner in "The Maquis" MY GOD.

The episode was "Profit and Loss" and yes, Natima Lang was one smoking little Cardassian hottie. This isn't the best picture, but judge for yourselves.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 2004-01-09 08:16pm

nothing like fucking a leper

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-01-09 08:20pm

Jeremy wrote:nothing like fucking a leper

I (along with most of the board I would hope) will have to take your word for it.