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Ok, I thought the episode of V'ger where the Borg torp did pitiful damage to an unshielded Voyager was bad, now an century or so old Klingon ship brought Voyager's aft shields down to 50% with a few distruptor and torp hits.

Uhm, there was a time warp so that the borg weapons replaced the klingon ship fire, and vice versa.

I'd say it's Annorax in his timeship. He's played with the timeline between eps.

anarchistbunny wrote:Ok, I thought the episode of V'ger where the Borg torp did pitiful damage to an unshielded Voyager was bad, now an century or so old Klingon ship brought Voyager's aft shields down to 50% with a few distruptor and torp hits.

Actually, by Trek standards I thought that particular Borg torpedo did okay damage. The Queen only seemed interested in running them off anyway; the cube didn't bother to pursue or continue firing, and the Borg certainly had time to get off a few more shots before VGR retreated.

The Klingon ship thing's harder to explain. With their cloak, I figure they managed to sneak up on an unshielded VGR and did some damage with an alpha strike. By the time VGR got around to raising shields at all, they couldn't put them up at full capacity.

Also in fairness, we don't know how many times the Klingon ship actually hit VGR. We didn't necessarily see the first shots fired in that "battle" onscreen.

There's no denying, however, that the old Klingon ship's weapons were still effective against VGR's defenses.

anarchistbunny wrote:Ok, I thought the episode of V'ger where the Borg torp did pitiful damage to an unshielded Voyager was bad, now an century or so old Klingon ship brought Voyager's aft shields down to 50% with a few distruptor and torp hits.

Torpedoes have variable yields. I believe this is considered well established for Trek.

As to Borg attacks on Voyager after STVOY "Scorpion", we can easily attribute them to the Borg Queen running "interference" on behalf of Voyager.

Don't forget, in STVOY "Scorpion", we see a Borg cube drop Voyager's shields with a single hit with it's tractor beam.

Afterwards, Seven of Nine is aboard Voyager, and the Borg Queen made it abundantly clear she found Seven of Nine to be one of her "favorites", both by actions and statements. Examples include a witnessed scene of the Borg Queen holding the Collective in check against Voyager, and she even directly said so later in episode(ref STVOY "Endgame"). Virtually any and all examples of "limited" firepower and effort against Voyager on behalf of Borg can be attributed to the Borg Queen's "Voyager Directive"(what I call it anyhow).

seanrobertson wrote:

anarchistbunny wrote:Ok, I thought the episode of V'ger where the Borg torp did pitiful damage to an unshielded Voyager was bad, now an century or so old Klingon ship brought Voyager's aft shields down to 50% with a few distruptor and torp hits.

Actually, by Trek standards I thought that particular Borg torpedo did okay damage.

Perhaps by Federation standards. But in Star Trek: First Contact, we see a single Borg torpedo literately destoy an entire a Federation starship. The above example is undoubtably a torpedo that was significantly lowered in output.

The Queen only seemed interested in running them off anyway; the cube didn't bother to pursue or continue firing, and the Borg certainly had time to get off a few more shots before VGR retreated.

The Borg Queen, by example and personal statements, has made it very clear she held the Borg Collective in check against Voyager.

The Klingon ship thing's harder to explain. With their cloak, I figure they managed to sneak up on an unshielded VGR and did some damage with an alpha strike. By the time VGR got around to raising shields at all, they couldn't put them up at full capacity.

Sounds reasonable to me.

Also in fairness, we don't know how many times the Klingon ship actually hit VGR. We didn't necessarily see the first shots fired in that "battle" onscreen.

There's no denying, however, that the old Klingon ship's weapons were still effective against VGR's defenses.

Noteably, Voyager did find a way to penetrate the Klingon ship's cloak, and once Voyager did that, they disabled the Klingon ship with a couple of hits IIRC.

The Borg Queen, by example and personal statements, has made it very clear she held the Borg Collective in check against Voyager

If the Borg Queen herself is a part of the collective how could she go against it ?

evilcat4000 wrote:

The Borg Queen, by example and personal statements, has made it very clear she held the Borg Collective in check against Voyager

If the Borg Queen herself is a part of the collective how could she go against it ?

Lots of people have theories about this, but if you take her statements from First Contact, you get the impression that she is a single entity outside the collective that is meant to provide an individual perspective of situations. So the rest of the Collective provides their decision on what to do and she has a sort of veto power over it.

Is it possible that along the way the Klingons found more powerful weapons?

Gandalf wrote:Is it possible that along the way the Klingons found more powerful weapons?

Quite probably. Lameway was able to find/reverse engineer tech constantly all along her little Pizarro-esque conquistador jaunt through the Indian Lands^H^H^H^HDelta Quad. I see no real reason why the Klinks couldn't, especially if they're TOS-type Smoothie-Heads.

evilcat4000 wrote:

The Borg Queen, by example and personal statements, has made it very clear she held the Borg Collective in check against Voyager

If the Borg Queen herself is a part of the collective how could she go against it ?

The Borg Queen is a smaller, more compact version of the Borg Vinculum.

The Borg Vinculum was seen in a Voyager episode(I don't remember which...I'm slipping ). It's a large artificial device that "brings order to chaos" as Seven of Nine described it. She stated that it organizes all drone thoughts and information, sorting through what is relevent and what is not. One of these devices is present on every Borg vessel(and presumeably at least one on every planet and base, etc).

The Borg Queen is the same as above, with the exception of being smaller and possessing a personality, with far less defensive and offensive capabilites of a Vinculum.

In STVOY "Endgame", we hear the Borg Collective "thinking" that they are going to pursue and assimilate Voyager. The Borg Queen in the Unicomplex overrides this inclination, and justifies the act by stating Voyager is not a threat and not compromising security.

This struck me as a communication of sorts between the large devices seen(ie: Vinculums) and a humanoid Borg Queen. The Vinculums, while larger(and notably mucher moe protected in seen episode), lack the personality traits of the Borg Queen, thus the Borg Collective would generally regard Voyager as another vessel(or even a threat do to previous actions) and try to assimilate it. The Borg Queen just overides this, obviously due to being higher up in control status.

Could it be that the Borg Queens are not native to the Borg, explaining their seeming quasi-independence from the Collective?

Uraniun235 wrote:Could it be that the Borg Queens are not native to the Borg, explaining their seeming quasi-independence from the Collective?

Actually, you hit it right on the nose.

The Borg Queen in STVOY "Dark Frontier" was talking to Seven after her capture and stated, quote: "I was originally assimilated from Species 125, but that's irrelevent now. We all originated from lesser species."

This is particularily interesting in regards to what was up with "Locutus of Borg". According to Picard in First Contact, the Borg Queen "wanted a counterpart, an equal". This would suggest Picard was being prepared to also become a humanoid version of the Borg Vinculum.

The Borg may consider this another redundant technology, like say if there aren't enough resources to build a bigass Vinculum on hand(like in ST:FC).