StarDestroyer.Net BBS

In TNG we hear constantly how the Enterprise-D is the Federation Flagship (despite how it never has an escort or is commanded by a "flag" rank officer, but never mind...), but do we ever hear in TOS the Enterprise being referred to as a flagship? Not the movies (when Kirk was an Admiral and the Enterprise would be his flagship), I mean the show? I honestly can't recall if they do or don't...

No, not that I can remember.

Nope...it was just your average vessel crewed by extraoridinary crewmen. It was one of the few Constitution-Class vessels to survive(I think the only one).

I think with the D they made it the flagship of the Federation.

Stofsk wrote:In TNG we hear constantly how the Enterprise-D is the Federation Flagship (despite how it never has an escort or is commanded by a "flag" rank officer, but never mind...)

You know that always bugged me too. Was it perhaps that the E-D was the most advanced ship at the time perhaps? Thus it was more like the 'flag ship - class' rather than the actual flag?

Crown wrote:

Stofsk wrote:In TNG we hear constantly how the Enterprise-D is the Federation Flagship (despite how it never has an escort or is commanded by a "flag" rank officer, but never mind...)

You know that always bugged me too. Was it perhaps that the E-D was the most advanced ship at the time perhaps? Thus it was more like the 'flag ship - class' rather than the actual flag?

Something I just thought about now, perhaps Picard's full rank was Fleet Captain (one of those not-quite-an-admiral, not-quite-a-captain ranks), afterall we do see him commanding fleets on at least two occassions (the blockade fleet assembled in "Redemption" and the Earth defence fleet in "First Contact"). However, why he simply wasn't made an Admiral boggles the mind (particularly when Janeshit got there first ).

Unless the term "flagship" means something else to the Starfleet of TNG? The E-D was the most advanced ship of it's time, not only that but it's name has a long and illustrious history - perhaps "flagship" is a non-literal term meant to symbolise or represent the Federation?

Personally, I think it's a purely symbolic gesture of "This is the pride of the Federation fleet." As for why Picard wasn't made an admiral, remember that he's resisted promotion before, remember that another captain once regretted becoming an admiral , and remember that I bet Starfleet wants him out on the field where he can do more good whereas they want Janeway off the bridge of a starship ASAP without revealing what an embarrassment she was.

Uraniun235 wrote:Personally, I think it's a purely symbolic gesture of "This is the pride of the Federation fleet." As for why Picard wasn't made an admiral, remember that he's resisted promotion before, remember that another captain once regretted becoming an admiral , and remember that I bet Starfleet wants him out on the field where he can do more good whereas they want Janeway off the bridge of a starship ASAP without revealing what an embarrassment she was.

A the Dilbert Principle. May she forever reign.

Ent-nil was described several times as being the finest ship in the fleet, but it wasn't the flagship. This is especially aparent as most of the Connies we saw were Captained by Commodores instead of Captains, most older then Kirk.

Stofsk wrote: Something I just thought about now, perhaps Picard's full rank was Fleet Captain (one of those not-quite-an-admiral, not-quite-a-captain ranks), afterall we do see him commanding fleets on at least two occassions (the blockade fleet assembled in "Redemption" and the Earth defence fleet in "First Contact"). However, why he simply wasn't made an Admiral boggles the mind (particularly when Janeshit got there first ).

Unless the term "flagship" means something else to the Starfleet of TNG? The E-D was the most advanced ship of it's time, not only that but it's name has a long and illustrious history - perhaps "flagship" is a non-literal term meant to symbolise or represent the Federation?

I wouldn't really use those two examples as a basis for calling Picard a "Fleet Captain".

"Redemption" if I recall correctly had a group of Romulan Warbirds about to attack the Klingons, and the Federation used a rag-tag fleet of some 20 ships to create a "tachyon field" or some other techno-babble to detect the Romulans. If I recall, the Enterprise was in command, because

a) They were there first, and were the ones who came up with the idea about the [techno-babble].
b) The otherships were all really crap.


In First Contact, the only reason Picard was incharge of the Fleet was because the Admiral's ship had been destroyed and the Enterprise E was the biggest, most least damaged ship in the fight at the time. Not to mention the fact that Picard could hear the Borg speaking cause of his implants or something.

Both of these examples are out of the norm, and don't really convince me sorry. I do agree with your comments about the Enterprise being called the "Flagship" because it was an advanced ship and the name had a lot of history.

PackMule wrote:

Stofsk wrote: Something I just thought about now, perhaps Picard's full rank was Fleet Captain (one of those not-quite-an-admiral, not-quite-a-captain ranks), afterall we do see him commanding fleets on at least two occassions (the blockade fleet assembled in "Redemption" and the Earth defence fleet in "First Contact"). However, why he simply wasn't made an Admiral boggles the mind (particularly when Janeshit got there first ).

Unless the term "flagship" means something else to the Starfleet of TNG? The E-D was the most advanced ship of it's time, not only that but it's name has a long and illustrious history - perhaps "flagship" is a non-literal term meant to symbolise or represent the Federation?

I wouldn't really use those two examples as a basis for calling Picard a "Fleet Captain".

"Redemption" if I recall correctly had a group of Romulan Warbirds about to attack the Klingons, and the Federation used a rag-tag fleet of some 20 ships to create a "tachyon field" or some other techno-babble to detect the Romulans. If I recall, the Enterprise was in command, because

a) They were there first, and were the ones who came up with the idea about the [techno-babble].
b) The otherships were all really crap.


In First Contact, the only reason Picard was incharge of the Fleet was because the Admiral's ship had been destroyed and the Enterprise E was the biggest, most least damaged ship in the fight at the time. Not to mention the fact that Picard could hear the Borg speaking cause of his implants or something.

Both of these examples are out of the norm, and don't really convince me sorry. I do agree with your comments about the Enterprise being called the "Flagship" because it was an advanced ship and the name had a lot of history.

Basically this can be summed by Voyager's "EQUINOX" whcih stated it was starfleet protocol that whne two or more ships mere together and their commanders were of equal rank then commands falls to the captain of the best equipped ship.

In both of the above cases, The ent was the most advanced ship in the area so command fell to its commander: Picard.

What about the Enterprise A, B or C? Were they ever considered flagships or was it just when they got to D that the Enterprise became the flagship?

Mlenk wrote:What about the Enterprise A, B or C? Were they ever considered flagships or was it just when they got to D that the Enterprise became the flagship?

I don't think the A would have been a flagship, by the time she was commisioned the Excelsior class was online. Being a bigger, more advanced ship I'd say one of those would have been the Flagship, if not Sulu's ship itself.

I think it's similar to how the U.S.S. Constitution is the "flagship" of the US Navy, even though she's not the actual flagship of any fleet. Enterprise is obviously the most honored name in Starfleet, so any ship bearing the name will be considered the symbolic flagship of the fleet.

Idle speculation: if instead of blowing up over Genesis, the original NCC-1701 had been quietly retired, would she have become the Constitution of Starfleet, never decommissioned and no ship ever bearing her name again, out of respect?

If Enterprise had not been destroyed at Genesis, she would likely have been decommissioned as Starfleet had originally planned. The ship was in very poor shape; putting such a battered ship on display would seem disrespectful in some sense to me (rather undignified; repair her or scrap her, I say) and I imagine the cost to repair the hull proper was more than Starfleet was willing to spend.

If Enterprise had not been destroyed at Genesis, she would likely have been decommissioned as Starfleet had originally planned. The ship was in very poor shape; putting such a battered ship on display would seem disrespectful in some sense to me (rather undignified; repair her or scrap her, I say) and I imagine the cost to repair the hull proper was more than Starfleet was willing to spend.

More likely that following decommission, it would become an orbital museum. Wasn't that what happened to the other surviving Constitution?

RedImperator wrote:I think it's similar to how the U.S.S. Constitution is the "flagship" of the US Navy, even though she's not the actual flagship of any fleet. Enterprise is obviously the most honored name in Starfleet, so any ship bearing the name will be considered the symbolic flagship of the fleet.

It seems quite likely that the case for the Enterprise-D and that the name Enterprise has through the exemplary performance of all of the ships of it's name from Ent-nil to Ent-C simply become a name that has to be kept in commision. After all, it's not just Kirk's Enterprise that's served with such distinction, the Ent-C's stand is bound to have gone down in Starfleet legend.

RedImperator wrote:Idle speculation: if instead of blowing up over Genesis, the original NCC-1701 had been quietly retired, would she have become the Constitution of Starfleet, never decommissioned and no ship ever bearing her name again, out of respect?

It's entirely possible. It's certainly got the prestige of the real USS Constitution or HMS Victory and it's also a ship that really helped define Starfleet in the same way. She might not have retained an active commision but she certainly would have been preserved.

Uraniun235 wrote:If Enterprise had not been destroyed at Genesis, she would likely have been decommissioned as Starfleet had originally planned. The ship was in very poor shape; putting such a battered ship on display would seem disrespectful in some sense to me (rather undignified; repair her or scrap her, I say) and I imagine the cost to repair the hull proper was more than Starfleet was willing to spend.

Never underestimate the power of public or service sentiment. HMS Victory was saved because her captain from Trafalgar (as First Lord) couldn't bear to have her broken up. USS Constitution was saved from destruction a number of times simply because public sentiment wouldn't let her go.

Matt Huang wrote:More likely that following decommission, it would become an orbital museum. Wasn't that what happened to the other surviving Constitution?

There were at least two Constitutions that survived to the TNG era, one was lost at Wolf 359 though, but it wouldn't suprise me if the newly decommisioned Ent-A was one of them.

The Kernel wrote:Ent-nil was described several times as being the finest ship in the fleet, but it wasn't the flagship. This is especially aparent as most of the Connies we saw were Captained by Commodores instead of Captains, most older then Kirk.

Seeing as how all of the Enterprises were mostly flagship in a strictly symbolic sense that doesn't mean too much, all it means is that the masters of starfleet had a lot of faith in Kirk. It's rare we see an actually flag officer in command of a genuine fleet. And it's telling to note that those commodores were of the "lower half" in that they did not have a Captain under them, so their rank would be not much further advanced over Kirk's.


It's also interesting to note that Starfleet has more than a little bit of resemblance to the old fighting sail Royal Navy in it's organization.

It always seemed to me like Picard was the self-appointed commander of the fleet in First Contact. I mean, there was no call from Starfleet HQ telling him to take command. Just him signaling the fleet that he was.

Come to think of it, the whole thing struck me as kind of weird. When the original flagship of the fleet blew, you would think that the President or the Fed equivilent of the Secretary of Defense or somebody high-ranking on Earth would've appointed a new commander. Instead, they calmly do nothing while Picard takes charge. Given the depth of their distrust (they were willing to trade the power of the E-E to keep him away from the fight for crying out loud), you think they would've at least counter-manded that.

I thought that I'd heard it explained once that when you have two Captain-rank officers on a ship, the visiting Captain is temporarily granted the title Commodore, as a ship should only have one Captain onboard.

LadyTevar wrote:I thought that I'd heard it explained once that when you have two Captain-rank officers on a ship, the visiting Captain is temporarily granted the title Commodore, as a ship should only have one Captain onboard.

This might be how it works in the real life Navy, but Starfleet does not adhere to such custom; IIRC there were at least two Commodores seen commanding starships (which themselves may have been the lead ship in a task force like in TOS The Ultimate Computer) and in TNG there have been two Captains aboard a vessel (Capts Picard and Maxwell in The Wounded).

LadyTevar wrote:I thought that I'd heard it explained once that when you have two Captain-rank officers on a ship, the visiting Captain is temporarily granted the title Commodore, as a ship should only have one Captain onboard.

Except that the E-A and three captains aboard. (Kirk,Spock and Scotty)

LadyTevar wrote:I thought that I'd heard it explained once that when you have two Captain-rank officers on a ship, the visiting Captain is temporarily granted the title Commodore, as a ship should only have one Captain onboard.

Sounds extremely dubious to me, seeing as carriers probably have a large handful of Captains, and the Commodore rank is essentially out of US Navy usage.

Howedar wrote:Sounds extremely dubious to me, seeing as carriers probably have a large handful of Captains, and the Commodore rank is essentially out of US Navy usage.

What do you mean "out of usage?" What did they replace it with? What is the Commodore rank anyway? I mean, just generally-speaking anyway, Captains command ships and Admirals command fleets. So what does it mean to be a Commodore? Squadron commander?

I mean that Commodore is not a rate in the US Navy. Frocking a guy to Commodore would be like making him a General. It ain't gonna happen.

The U.S. Navy has dispensed with the rank of Commodore, replacing it with Rear Admiral (lower half), as opposed to Rear Admiral (upper half). I read a few years ago that there was some grumbling about this in the Pentagon, but no changes are in the works that I know of (telling quote: "If 'Commodore' was good enough for David Farragut, it's good enough for these guys")