Size/Power/Influence of the Dominion?

Super-Gagme · Post by **Super-Gagme** » 2003-12-16 05:01pm

As the topic says, what are everyones views on this? The Gamma Quadrant is a big place so what do we make of their empire? Fleet sizes? Expansion? Territory?

One thing to consider is the size of the fleet they built up in the short time with the Cardassians. So everyone?

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2003-12-16 05:58pm

sure they bulit it up from scratch? it wouldn't seem very likely. it'd be more likely that they already had the fleets available but diverted them towards their goal of fighting the alpha quadrant.

Sothis · Post by **Sothis** » 2003-12-16 06:22pm

Mmm... I've always seen the Dominion has possessing territory and resources that outstripped at the very least the Federation AND Klingons, and quite possibly all the main powers of the Alpha Quadrant. After all, they were able to divert ships and manpower to aid the Cardassians in the war, of enough numbers to threaten the survival of the Federation and Klingon Empire WITHOUT reinforcements from the Gamma Quadrant. With Gamma Quadrant forces (the reinforcements mentioned were 2800 ships, if I recall Sacrifice of Angels correctly) it was believed- by both sides- that the Dominion would overwhelm the Alpha Quadrant- though that quite possibly refers to additional reinforcements at a later stage. The Dominion could only spare an X amount of resources and ships before they risked their internal stability in the Gamma Quadrant, yet could spare 2800 ships all in one go, with probable additional support later on. That suggests significant resources and territory.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-12-16 06:41pm

This may give some insight.

DS9 "Tacking Into the Wind"

Martok : "By tomorrow, we'll have fifteen hundred Klingon vessels ready for deployment."
Romulan : "With the Breen, the Cardassians and the Jem'Hadar, you're still outnumbered twenty to one."

Assuming that each of them are committing equal numbers the Dominion would have 10,000 ships, while the total DCB Alliance would total 30,000. That estimate is most likely higher given the strong possibility that the Dominion controls the bulk of those forces.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-12-16 07:34pm

A few things to think about on the 30,000 ship quote.

The Cardassians had been fighting two different wars over the span of four years by this point. They had been massively exhausted. Also the Breen while noted in the Trek Universe were never considered a major power. They were at best a very useful ally. Given their entry late in the war and their technology, that was the usefulness the Dominion wanted. Its entirely reasonable to assume that of the 30,000 ships, the Dominion represented 15,000.

This of course is a good thing. Because of this an overrepresenation of the Dominon and allied forces were made up of relatively weak Jem'Hadar Attackships. While the Dominion could rebuild quite quickly, if they were hit hard and fast by enemies with bigger and more powerful ships (Federation and Romulans) they loose their advantage. The backbone of general firepower behind the DCB alliance was the Cardassian ships and the Cardassians appeared to have the smallest fleet by this point.

Now how powerful was the Dominion elsewhere? We know that after a short period of months the Dominion had massed enough ships behind the wormhole to send something like 2,800 ships through with more reinforcements expected. We also know this is where the bulk of the Dominion fleet existed as well as their shipyards.

How many ships did the Dominon leave at home? We don't really know. I've seen estimates that the Dominon had a total fleet of 50,000 to 300,000 ships. 50,000 is likely too low and 300,000 seems too high. The real figure likely lies between.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-12-16 07:37pm

If I was forced to extend a guess, I'd say between half and two thirds of the Gamma Quadrant is Dominion, and their fleet masses 100,000 strong. Practical downside of this is that most of those are gonna be 'Bugs'.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 2003-12-16 09:07pm

Perhaps they just hold a comparitivly small territory that is resource rich. A reason behind this could be several powerful neighbors.

Super-Gagme · Post by **Super-Gagme** » 2003-12-16 09:48pm

Another thing I noticed is that after they lost the re-inforcements from the Prophets of 2800 ships they still wanted to somehow bring in more re-inforcements so the 2800 wasn't as big of a blow to them is my guess.

Also consider the Dominion has been going for 10,000 years. 10,000 years of an interstellar empire has a lot of room to grow.

Mlenk · Post by **Mlenk** » 2003-12-17 05:17am

Maybe it's just me but I would have thought that an empire like the Dominion that's been going strong for 10,000 years would hold more influence over the galaxy than just one quadrant.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 2003-12-17 10:39am

more to my point that they have some big neighbors

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2003-12-17 11:22am

Mlenk wrote:Maybe it's just me but I would have thought that an empire like the Dominion that's been going strong for 10,000 years would hold more influence over the galaxy than just one quadrant.

To be honest I always thought the Dominion to be a rather isolationist empire - they wanted to stay on their side of the wormhole and the Feddies on the AQ side. They didn't expand until Dukat invited them into Cardassian territory, sealing an alliance between the two states. If you accept that the Dominion is an isolationist state then it's "small" influence of the Gamma Quadrant makes sense, even if 10'000 years have passed.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 2003-12-17 03:41pm

stfosk, at B5tech didn't you tell me they were an expansionist empire
(my name there is Jadyn2114)

Mlenk · Post by **Mlenk** » 2003-12-17 03:58pm

Stofsk wrote:To be honest I always thought the Dominion to be a rather isolationist empire - they wanted to stay on their side of the wormhole and the Feddies on the AQ side. They didn't expand until Dukat invited them into Cardassian territory, sealing an alliance between the two states. If you accept that the Dominion is an isolationist state then it's "small" influence of the Gamma Quadrant makes sense, even if 10'000 years have passed.

I guess that makes sense considering the Founders attitudes towards other species. So do we know anything about the rest of the gamma quadrant? Are there any other major powers there besides the Dominion?

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 2003-12-17 05:01pm

There are a few species, besides that nothing

Super-Gagme · Post by **Super-Gagme** » 2003-12-17 07:17pm

Where is the source of this "few species in gamma quadrant" statement? Also didn't Sisko say the Founders feel it is their duty to bring the chaos that is the galaxy under their order?

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2003-12-17 10:59pm

Jeremy wrote:stfosk, at B5tech didn't you tell me they were an expansionist empire
(my name there is Jadyn2114)

Nah, I didn't. I said they were aggressive, which is a facet of their attitude. They were aggressive isolationists who didn't want people coming into the Gamma Quardant fucking around in their neighbourhood. When Cardassia signed the alliance between them, they sent an immediate fleet through the wormhole to reinforce the Cardassian territory, and then kept sending reinforcements every few weeks. (ref. "A Call to Arms") However, they didn't even attack the federation until Sisko made the blatantly aggressive act of mining the entrance to the wormhole. (The war may have been inevitable but that cannot be proven; all we do know is that Sisko forced the Dominion's hand, and they responded)

OT: Where's Brandon? I've been haunting the board over there waiting for his reaction to the new BSG, not that I've seen it or anything.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-12-18 01:16am

SirNitram wrote:If I was forced to extend a guess, I'd say between half and two thirds of the Gamma Quadrant is Dominion, and their fleet masses 100,000 strong. Practical downside of this is that most of those are gonna be 'Bugs'.

Eh...to say 2/3 the superficial area above is ambigious.

Considering the spare-ness of the Alpha Quadrant powers, you could have an area the size of one of the lesser powers, and if developed as densely as say, a comparable region in the Wars galaxy, you could have an equal power with one of the larger area states.

Depending on the Dominion's age, it may not be too large, but be densely and well-developed.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-12-18 02:29am

An interesting note is that in WYLB the Founder mentions that the Jem' Hadar had been the Dominon's forst line for defense for 2000 years.

Also, sometime after the for DW arc, doesn't the Founder again mention thousands more ships wanting to join the war effort?

TrekWarsie · Post by **TrekWarsie** » 2003-12-18 10:09am

Something that I noticed about the reinforcements was that they consisted of a lot of battleships and relatively few fighters. I think that the 2800 ships wasn't so bad in terms of numbers, it was bad because over 1000 of them were probably at least as strong, if not stronger, than a galaxy class starship. That could pose a problem if a good chunk of the Dominion forces are now ships that can beat one of the most powerful ships in the Alpha Quadrant in a one on one battle.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-12-18 10:39pm

I don't think they were battleships, I think they were more probably just standard ships. I think they're referred to as warships.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-12-19 01:01am

Given the Dominions direct threat to the Federation and their meddling in the relations in the Alpha/Beta Quandrants, its safe to say that the Dominion is not isolationist, they are expantionist.

The best way to label the Dominion is that they are Agressive Expanssionists.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-19 01:31am

One must wonder why the Dominion relied so heavily on those wheezy attack ships (aka "target practice for USS Defiant"). Perhaps they were just not accustomed to facing serious resistance due to their dominion (sorry) over their own quadrant.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-12-19 01:37am

I think it had more to do with the Dominion not carring about losses greatly and having a massively superior industrial capacity. Although it should be noted the Dominion Heavy Cruisers weren't spoted for more then two years after the Dominion was discovered. Its possible they were developed to deal with the potential threat of the Federation and Klingons adapting to Dominion weapons and the need for heavier ships to counter this threat.

Metrion Cascade · Post by **Metrion Cascade** » 2003-12-19 01:46am

Darth Wong wrote:One must wonder why the Dominion relied so heavily on those wheezy attack ships (aka "target practice for USS Defiant"). Perhaps they were just not accustomed to facing serious resistance due to their dominion (sorry) over their own quadrant.

Maybe because every example we've seen of the Dominion using military force other than against the AQ has been internal security? IIRC, they attacked Dominion members on several occasions for disobedience, such as the Karemma. Unlike a relatively peaceful government that has to police its borders and occasionally fight in foreign territory (with far less firepower trained on its own criminal element), the Dominion needs a constant military presence inside its own borders. Surely it's easier to build a shitload of bugs (apparently still fearsome by GQ standards) to patrol their entire territory than all capital ships.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2003-12-19 01:46am

Darth Wong wrote:One must wonder why the Dominion relied so heavily on those wheezy attack ships (aka "target practice for USS Defiant"). Perhaps they were just not accustomed to facing serious resistance due to their dominion (sorry) over their own quadrant.

I always considered the Jem'Hadar beetles to be a patrol ship, ideally suited to taking care of piracy or unruly subject races, but not good enough to protect against capital ships.

Which leads me to a question: did the Odyssey destroy 2 out of the 3 Jem'Hadar beetles (which would make sense if the third and final beetle made a kamikaze run against it) in the episode "The Jem'Hadar"? We don't actually see them destroyed, but if they weren't then the runabouts would've been easy pickings for the 2 survivors - Sisko and co would've been captured.