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When the Yamato is destroyed, as the saucer flys away it looks like there's NDF effects that eat away at much of the dorsal saucer. What would cause such an effect?

Difficult to say without seeing a video clip, but the dorsal phaser strip presumably generates the peculiar particles that phasers fire, and the destruction of the ship may have released those particles in such a way that they attacked the hull. Normally you wouldn't expect the phaser strip to be charged up with NDF particles unless the weapons are armed for battle, but all of the Yamato's systems were screwed up because of the Iconian computer virus.

Is that another terrible design fault?

This is nothing more then the problem of opperating the entire ships running systems off a single computer.

Alyeska wrote:This is nothing more then the problem of opperating the entire ships running systems off a single computer.

..A single computer that runs alien software with full permissions. That is to say, a massive, glaring, suicidal flaw.

SirNitram wrote:

Alyeska wrote:This is nothing more then the problem of opperating the entire ships running systems off a single computer.

..A single computer that runs alien software with full permissions. That is to say, a massive, glaring, suicidal flaw.

I think the 'new' cylons would have fun with that flaw.

SirNitram wrote:

Alyeska wrote:This is nothing more then the problem of opperating the entire ships running systems off a single computer.

..A single computer that runs alien software with full permissions. That is to say, a massive, glaring, suicidal flaw.

It did nothing of the sort. Do you know what a virus is? It subverts the system. While its bad that the computer system runs everything, it doesn't change the fact that whatever interfaced with the Iconian probe would become infected because of a virus, not that the computers give permission. The Romulan ship had similar problems.

Alyeska wrote:

SirNitram wrote:

Alyeska wrote:This is nothing more then the problem of opperating the entire ships running systems off a single computer.

..A single computer that runs alien software with full permissions. That is to say, a massive, glaring, suicidal flaw.

It did nothing of the sort. Do you know what a virus is? It subverts the system. While its bad that the computer system runs everything, it doesn't change the fact that whatever interfaced with the Iconian probe would become infected because of a virus, not that the computers give permission. The Romulan ship had similar problems.

Alyeska, please. I know what a virus is, and I know how they work. They cannot work unless executed, they will generally fail if they lack the permissions to do their dirty work. Anything that interfaces with the Probe would be exposed to the virus, just like I get exposed to a virus that someone E-mails me as an attachment. However, I, unlike the Yamato, can choose many options.

1) I can not download the file. I can simply choose to ignore it, or cut the connection if need be. The Yamato apparently downloaded the file immediately.

2) I can avoid executing it. Files can't start themselves. The Yamato apparently immediately executed this file without giving a damn.

3) I can simply avoid most damage by not running a user with full permissions. If I'm not /root, it doesn't have the ability to do /root things. The Yamato, on the other hand, apparently gave this virus full authority over it's weapon system, IIRC.

Your average AOL user can avoid this. This is a serious flaw.

Thank (or hate) the writers for this. The probe infected the Yamato by firing a beam at it. The Iconian Gateway also did this to Data IIRC. This was some sort of transmission beam, but it wasn't something the Yamato could avoid. The Romulans were listening in and managed to get infected as well IIRC.

Alyeska wrote:Thank (or hate) the writers for this. The probe infected the Yamato by firing a beam at it. The Iconian Gateway also did this to Data IIRC. This was some sort of transmission beam, but it wasn't something the Yamato could avoid. The Romulans were listening in and managed to get infected as well IIRC.

Then we're looking at a focused, tightbeam form of data transmission. This does remove Option 1(Cut the connection), but does not remove the other two layers. Look, blame the writers if you wish, but the Galaxy Class, and apparently many Trek ships(By the Romulan troubles), have shit for computing security. By shit, I mean worse than modern computers.

Alyeska wrote:Thank (or hate) the writers for this. The probe infected the Yamato by firing a beam at it. The Iconian Gateway also did this to Data IIRC. This was some sort of transmission beam, but it wasn't something the Yamato could avoid. The Romulans were listening in and managed to get infected as well IIRC.

Alyeska, you are forgetting that the ship transmitted this virus to the Enterprise as well as a Romulan Warbird by sending messages to them. No direct beam was necessary for those two other victims. This means that executable code in messages is automatically executed by the computer systems of both the Romulans and the Federation.

Sorry, but you can't invoke magical properties of the Iconian probe as an excuse.

You have to look at the situation that these transmissions occured. The Yamato captain thought there was a design flaw in that ship causing ot to go haywire. He was correct to a degree, but didn't realize a virus was destroying his system. When he contacted the Enterprise he had no reason to suspect he would infect them. Furthermore Picard had no reason to suspect he would recieve a virus from the Yamato. Its likely there is more information exchanged in communications then what we know about and the virus rode along. As for the Romulan ship. They were intercepting the communications and had no reason to suspect that communication between two Galaxy class ships would give them a virus.

The single biggest problem in this episode is the central computer systems controling every aspect of both the Galaxy class and D'Deridex.

Alyeska wrote:You have to look at the situation that these transmissions occured. The Yamato captain thought there was a design flaw in that ship causing ot to go haywire. He was correct to a degree, but didn't realize a virus was destroying his system. When he contacted the Enterprise he had no reason to suspect he would infect them. Furthermore Picard had no reason to suspect he would recieve a virus from the Yamato. Its likely there is more information exchanged in communications then what we know about and the virus rode along. As for the Romulan ship. They were intercepting the communications and had no reason to suspect that communication between two Galaxy class ships would give them a virus.

What difference does it make whether they suspect anything? There is no conceivable reason for the computer to auto-execute code found in a message log! They shouldn't have to enact special precautions against something which should not be allowed by the software in the first place!

The single biggest problem in this episode is the central computer systems controling every aspect of both the Galaxy class and D'Deridex.

That is what allows the virus to propagate through every system and become a potentially lethal problem, but it is not what allows initial infection.

Mike, if you recieved an e-mail from a friend who appeared to have hardware problems, would you be suspect that his e-mail might have a virus?

Its obvious that more data is transmitted in communications then just the message itself. What this means is that a level of data exchange must occur and this information would be automaticaly examined. This means activating the information. That triggers the virus.

And as for the single computer running everything. That is a big problem because it doesn't take into account the need for critical systems to be kept different. Shields, M/AM control, weapons, life support. They should all be run on isolated systems. Yet they weren't and this is the singlest biggest problem.

Alyeska wrote:Mike, if you recieved an e-mail from a friend who appeared to have hardware problems, would you be suspect that his e-mail might have a virus?

If it came with executable code embedded in it, then yes. I'm not an idiot, and messages are supposed to be just that: messages. Moreover, my mail client is not designed to auto-execute such code.

Its obvious that more data is transmitted in communications then just the message itself. What this means is that a level of data exchange must occur and this information would be automaticaly examined. This means activating the information. That triggers the virus.

Wrong. You can examine data without executing it. Virus scanners do this as part of their basic function, Alyeska. In fact, that E-mail virus probably passed through several routers as well as at least one spam filter and two mail servers before it reached my computer, all of which do at least some form of inspection.

And as for the single computer running everything. That is a big problem because it doesn't take into account the need for critical systems to be kept different. Shields, M/AM control, weapons, life support. They should all be run on isolated systems. Yet they weren't and this is the singlest biggest problem.

Of course it's a huge problem. I'm just pointing out that your excuses for the original infection don't wash.

It could be that the Iconian virus got access to the Enterprise remote command codes, and that when Enterprise recieved the message with the virus, the headers for the message included commands with the remote command codes for the Enterprise computer to execute some code within the message.

Of course, the Federation could also just have bad security, which is the simpler and more easily demonstratable answer.

Back on the NDF: The effect seemed to propagate first from an area very near the bridge, spreading from the center of the saucer out towards the edge.

Could it perhaps have been the "secondary self-destruct" system (as postulated in the TNG TM) going off?

Darth Wong wrote: This means that executable code in messages is automatically executed by the computer systems of both the Romulans and the Federation.

Analogies with current IT are always risky IMHO, but if the attack was analogous to a buffer overrun exploit, that would let the fundamental design (but not the implementation) of Rom and Fed systems off the hook.

Actually, this sounds more like a worm. I guess Starfleet computers don't have firewalls.

Actually, this sounds more like a worm. I guess Starfleet computers don't have firewalls.

They have what, seven separate "safety interlocks", whatever they are, to protect life support. I doubt that a system that is just as critical as the life support would be given virtually no protection.

Personally, I think that the transfer mechanism (the beam) was able to write directly onto the computer core (maybe using a variant of transporter tech?), bypassing the ST equivalent of firewalls (relatively crude analogy: if I want to wipe your hard drive, I could try to take over your computer and make it overwrite your hard drive with random data via your internet connection, or I could just hit your computer with an EMP).

Matt Huang wrote:

Actually, this sounds more like a worm. I guess Starfleet computers don't have firewalls.

They have what, seven separate "safety interlocks", whatever they are, to protect life support. I doubt that a system that is just as critical as the life support would be given virtually no protection.

Personally, I think that the transfer mechanism (the beam) was able to write directly onto the computer core (maybe using a variant of transporter tech?), bypassing the ST equivalent of firewalls (relatively crude analogy: if I want to wipe your hard drive, I could try to take over your computer and make it overwrite your hard drive with random data via your internet connection, or I could just hit your computer with an EMP).

Explain how the E-D and the Warbird got infected, then.

My guess (aside from horrible security design) would be the almighty prefix codes.

Uraniun235 wrote:My guess (aside from horrible security design) would be the almighty prefix codes.

The prefix code system —the wide-open back door.

I think the real reason why the Yamato blew up is obvious. Someone installed Windows.

That or someone in engineering passed gas in the direction of the warp core.