Bajor joining the UFP

Enola Straight · Post by **Enola Straight** » 2003-12-12 02:09pm

Why would Bajor want to join the Federation?

A highly religeous world being integrated into an Atheist/Agnostic nation which, due to the Prime Directive, didn't do a damn thing when Cardassia conquered Bajor and enslaved them all.

A nation which is willing to cede territory to an enemy instead of protecting the homes of their citizens.

A nation who was willing to give industrial replicators to the Cardassians, something they DIDN'T offer to either Bajor OR the colonists displaced by relocation.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-12 02:11pm

Probably because they were looking for some kind of military protection, and their only alternative was the Cardassians.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2003-12-12 02:34pm

maybe they're also wanting some type of trade. the federation seems to have technologies that the bajorans lack. such as the industrial replicators and the specialized farming equipment.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-12-12 07:01pm

The Federation itself may not be so atheist/agnostic as a whole. Earth definitely fits that profile. The Vulcans devotion to logic is technically a religion as well isn't it?

Also the Bajoran Prophets have something a little more tangible than what one would typically think of as god. The wormhole Aliens do technically exist.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2003-12-12 11:15pm

Picard kept a King James Bible around, didn't he? I don't think that he was a Christian, but are they really entirely atheist if the Bible was even printed?

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-12-12 11:24pm

Would it even be allowed to enter with its non seperated Church and State?

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2003-12-12 11:29pm

In the recent DS9 book Unity Bajor supposedly joins the Federation but they seem to ignore or doge some of the problems that people here have brought up and that were brought up in other books.

I'm presuming that some of this stuff will be addressed in future novels since some of the related plot lines have definately not been taken care of.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2003-12-13 01:27am

Rogue 9 wrote:Picard kept a King James Bible around, didn't he? I don't think that he was a Christian, but are they really entirely atheist if the Bible was even printed?

I honestly don't remember that.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2003-12-13 01:57am

My source is Dark Mirror, one of the novels. There may be other references.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2003-12-13 02:03am

Rogue 9 wrote:My source is Dark Mirror, one of the novels. There may be other references.

I thought you were referring to an episode. In any case, back to your original post, Picard is an amatuer archaeologist and seems to enjoy collecting artifacts. Bearing this mind it is entirely possible that the bible you're referring to is some sort of artifact. It could also possibly be a family possession, as books don't seem to be printed anymore (at least I can't think of a single instance where a paperback was being held by anyone in Picard's time). Simply possessing a bible isn't proof that the Federation has some religious leanings. I myself have several bibles but I'm not a christian.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-13 02:07am

Rogue 9 wrote:Picard kept a King James Bible around, didn't he? I don't think that he was a Christian, but are they really entirely atheist if the Bible was even printed?

I have a Bible, and I'm atheist. One doesn't have to believe in it to recognize its importance in terms of influencing the behaviour of people throughout history.

Not that it matters since the novels are irrelevant, but the point still had to be made.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2003-12-13 03:52am

Never said you had to be Christian to possess a Bible. In fact, I said that you did not in the first post. It was just a possibility, I did not mean that I think Picard or the Federation in general were Christian.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-12-13 09:31am

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Would it even be allowed to enter with its non seperated Church and State?

Where is it said that Federation membership requires a planet to abide by that particular idea? We do know that caste systems make a world ineligible for federation membership but apart from that I don't think we have ever been told other entry requirements.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-12-13 09:46am

TheDarkling wrote:
Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Would it even be allowed to enter with its non seperated Church and State?
Where is it said that Federation membership requires a planet to abide by that particular idea? We do know that caste systems make a world ineligible for federation membership but apart from that I don't think we have ever been told other entry requirements.

The only stated requirement onscreen for being a Federation member is IIRC having one central planetary government. Still, I don't know if they'd so easily accept a world that has their main religon funded by the government and schools that teach religon over science.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2003-12-13 05:33pm

Stofsk wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:My source is Dark Mirror, one of the novels. There may be other references.
I thought you were referring to an episode. In any case, back to your original post, Picard is an amatuer archaeologist and seems to enjoy collecting artifacts. Bearing this mind it is entirely possible that the bible you're referring to is some sort of artifact. It could also possibly be a family possession, as books don't seem to be printed anymore (at least I can't think of a single instance where a paperback was being held by anyone in Picard's time). Simply possessing a bible isn't proof that the Federation has some religious leanings. I myself have several bibles but I'm not a christian.

in an episode of DS9, when we're shown a future image of jake whose trying to rescue Sisko from that temporal anomaly (i don't know the name), doesn't it show him with a few hardcover paper books in his home? that would suggest that books are either still at the very least made (replicated) or printed.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2003-12-14 09:36pm

Tsyroc wrote:In the recent DS9 book Unity Bajor supposedly joins the Federation but they seem to ignore or doge some of the problems that people here have brought up and that were brought up in other books.

I'm presuming that some of this stuff will be addressed in future novels since some of the related plot lines have definately not been taken care of.

It's possible with Bajor that they were making an exemption, especially considering its stratejic importance should the Dominion ever launch another attack...

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-12-14 09:44pm

Would it be possible that the UFP would allow church run states to join as long as no one is being unfairly oppressed?

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2003-12-15 11:34am

doesn't bajor have two governing bodies? the vedic council then a standard governmental system? hence the reason kai wynn was seeking another political position beyond just Kai. with kai being spiritual leader, the other being political (i forget the proper title for the other).

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-12-15 03:25pm

Was the title of the Bjoran PM Vedek? Or is that another Religious. IIRC Briel was a Vedek.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2003-12-15 03:30pm

vedek was the title for one of the religious leaders who worked under the kai.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-12-15 04:13pm

Darth_Zod wrote:doesn't bajor have two governing bodies? the vedic council then a standard governmental system? hence the reason kai wynn was seeking another political position beyond just Kai. with kai being spiritual leader, the other being political (i forget the proper title for the other).

They have the Provisional Government (Headed by First Minister with the body being the Council of Ministers) and the Vedek Assembly headed by the Kai (an elected position), the Council of ministers seem to be in charge of treaties and the like, just how much power (if any outside religion) the Vedek assembly has is never made clear.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-12-15 04:57pm

Gandalf wrote:Would it be possible that the UFP would allow church run states to join as long as no one is being unfairly oppressed?

I church run state is by its very nature unfairly opressive.

I thought the Vedeks were religous leaders with political power (Winn was a Vedek before she became Kai).

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-12-30 06:34pm

Darth Fanboy wrote:The Federation itself may not be so atheist/agnostic as a whole. Earth definitely fits that profile.

Sorry to dig up an old thread but I just noticed something that seems to fit in here whilst watching DS9. When discussing marriage plans Kassidy says

KASIDY
My mother would prefer for her
daughter to be married by a
minister...

So it seems at least some Humans still believe in organised religion (probably Christianity).

Lancer · Post by **Lancer** » 2003-12-30 07:03pm

TheDarkling wrote:
Darth Fanboy wrote:The Federation itself may not be so atheist/agnostic as a whole. Earth definitely fits that profile.
Sorry to dig up an old thread but I just noticed something that seems to fit in here whilst watching DS9. When discussing marriage plans Kassidy says

KASIDY
My mother would prefer for her
daughter to be married by a
minister...

So it seems at least some Humans still believe in organised religion (probably Christianity).

but most humans in ST have already come to their senses and accepted that religion is bull.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-12-30 07:06pm

Matt Huang wrote: but most humans in ST have already come to their senses and accepted that religion is bull.

And how exactly do we know that?