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We may in reality be discussing classified materials but I am curious how large a nuclear warehad could be put into a photon torpedo warhead replacing the anti-matter and support systems.

Kitsune wrote:We may in reality be discussing classified materials but I am curious how large a nuclear warehad could be put into a photon torpedo warhead replacing the anti-matter and support systems.

Not all that large really. The largest warheads that can be carried by ICBMs are in the 10-20 megaton range and these warheads are MASSIVE. The small torpedo cassing would not allow something that size. I would say at best you could cram a 2 MT warhead into a torpedo cassing. However given torpedo design with things such as guidance, shielding, and propulsion, a 2 MT nuclear warhead might be a little too large to fit.

You could probably still fit a bigger warhead then feddies are using now with fed tech atleast.

Is the 24 mega-tons mentioned on Wongs Site for a photon torpedo an accepted number by most people here?

Kitsune wrote:Is the 24 mega-tons mentioned on Wongs Site for a photon torpedo an accepted number by most people here?

I would say it's accurate to within an order of magnitude. There's lots of evidence for lower effective yields, but the presence of even ONE event over those would invalidate such figures as a high-end figure.

Master of Ossus wrote:

Kitsune wrote:Is the 24 mega-tons mentioned on Wongs Site for a photon torpedo an accepted number by most people here?

I would say it's accurate to within an order of magnitude. There's lots of evidence for lower effective yields, but the presence of even ONE event over those would invalidate such figures as a high-end figure.

There is evidence on both sides of the issue MOO. I can count at least half a dozen consistent examples of the highend firepower.

24? I thought it was 64 for a photon torpedo?

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:24? I thought it was 64 for a photon torpedo?

64 MT comes from TMs. However when you factor in possible spherical explossions and less then 100% efficency, the actual firepower on target is less. Although it should be noted that torpedoes have been observed as firing both spherical and directed charges.

I see. I knew about the spherical and exposure to target thing, but thought they were using 24 to refer to total output.

What I want to know is, why such low yield torps? 65 MT? That's 1.5 Kilos of antimatter. I have books that way more then that

Solauren wrote:What I want to know is, why such low yield torps? 65 MT? That's 1.5 Kilos of antimatter. I have books that way more then that

You have to hold it in a non material containment such as a magnetic field or more likely a gravitic field. You need equipment for that which takes up space.

Also, torpedoes don't have AM in them until they're armed in the tube, when antimatter is pumped in. It could be that Federation technology has a hard time pumping in antimatter swiftly, and Starfleet is willing to trade the sheer firepower of a fully-loaded torpedo (explaining why a captain would need to specify a high-yield setting) for getting the torpedo on target that much quicker.

Alyeska wrote:

Master of Ossus wrote:

Kitsune wrote:Is the 24 mega-tons mentioned on Wongs Site for a photon torpedo an accepted number by most people here?

I would say it's accurate to within an order of magnitude. There's lots of evidence for lower effective yields, but the presence of even ONE event over those would invalidate such figures as a high-end figure.

There is evidence on both sides of the issue MOO. I can count at least half a dozen consistent examples of the highend firepower.

Isn't there evidence that photon torpedoes may indeed have some high yields?

One example that comes to mind is the incident where the E-D is being pursued by a alien probe(the one that makes Barcly superhuman smart). They fired phasers and determine them ineffective. They then want to use torpedoes, but Riker states that at the range the probe is, the detonation of the torpedoes could cripple the Enterprise. If I'm not mistaken, the Enterprise was at least a couple of kilometers away from the Enterprise at the time. Given the amount of energy a galaxy class starship should be able to handle without being crippled, wouldn't that imply a unusually high yield torpedo, or spread of torpedoes?

Uraniun235 wrote:Also, torpedoes don't have AM in them until they're armed in the tube, when antimatter is pumped in. It could be that Federation technology has a hard time pumping in antimatter swiftly, and Starfleet is willing to trade the sheer firepower of a fully-loaded torpedo (explaining why a captain would need to specify a high-yield setting) for getting the torpedo on target that much quicker.

Is there a canon source on which to base the statement that AM is loaded into torpedo casings before firing? This might make alot of sense given the variable yields we've seen.

Robert Walper wrote: Is there a canon source on which to base the statement that AM is loaded into torpedo casings before firing? This might make alot of sense given the variable yields we've seen.

I would prefer to disagree with concept of loading before firing myself for safety reasons. It is non-cannon, true, but the DS-9 manual does state that they load them just before firing.

Yes there is a canon source. There have been repeated statements of torpedoes having their yields altered just prior to firing. Now unless the ship can load new torpedoes very quickly that aren't normaly in stock, this means that the torpedoes are being loaded with an non-standard anti-matter configuration.

Isn't there evidence that photon torpedoes may indeed have some high yields?

One example that comes to mind is the incident where the E-D is being pursued by a alien probe(the one that makes Barcly superhuman smart). They fired phasers and determine them ineffective. They then want to use torpedoes, but Riker states that at the range the probe is, the detonation of the torpedoes could cripple the Enterprise. If I'm not mistaken, the Enterprise was at least a couple of kilometers away from the Enterprise at the time. Given the amount of energy a galaxy class starship should be able to handle without being crippled, wouldn't that imply a unusually high yield torpedo, or spread of torpedoes?

The DS9 episode "The Die is cast" also has some high firepower values. This incident seems to support the "The Die is Cast" firepower calculations.

Robert Walper wrote:

Alyeska wrote:

Master of Ossus wrote: I would say it's accurate to within an order of magnitude. There's lots of evidence for lower effective yields, but the presence of even ONE event over those would invalidate such figures as a high-end figure.

There is evidence on both sides of the issue MOO. I can count at least half a dozen consistent examples of the highend firepower.

Isn't there evidence that photon torpedoes may indeed have some high yields?

One example that comes to mind is the incident where the E-D is being pursued by a alien probe(the one that makes Barcly superhuman smart). They fired phasers and determine them ineffective. They then want to use torpedoes, but Riker states that at the range the probe is, the detonation of the torpedoes could cripple the Enterprise. If I'm not mistaken, the Enterprise was at least a couple of kilometers away from the Enterprise at the time. Given the amount of energy a galaxy class starship should be able to handle without being crippled, wouldn't that imply a unusually high yield torpedo, or spread of torpedoes?

As I recall, that example, like the one in BOBW, points at less then 10 MT torpedos.

evilcat4000 wrote:

Isn't there evidence that photon torpedoes may indeed have some high yields?

One example that comes to mind is the incident where the E-D is being pursued by a alien probe(the one that makes Barcly superhuman smart). They fired phasers and determine them ineffective. They then want to use torpedoes, but Riker states that at the range the probe is, the detonation of the torpedoes could cripple the Enterprise. If I'm not mistaken, the Enterprise was at least a couple of kilometers away from the Enterprise at the time. Given the amount of energy a galaxy class starship should be able to handle without being crippled, wouldn't that imply a unusually high yield torpedo, or spread of torpedoes?

The DS9 episode "The Die is cast" also has some high firepower values. This incident seems to support the "The Die is Cast" firepower calculations.

It is impossible to get valid numbers from TDIC. Observe the latest debate, or talk to Sean or Ted about it or visit Wayne's page.

Alyeska wrote:

Master of Ossus wrote:

Kitsune wrote:Is the 24 mega-tons mentioned on Wongs Site for a photon torpedo an accepted number by most people here?

I would say it's accurate to within an order of magnitude. There's lots of evidence for lower effective yields, but the presence of even ONE event over those would invalidate such figures as a high-end figure.

There is evidence on both sides of the issue MOO. I can count at least half a dozen consistent examples of the highend firepower.

Can you name some that indicate a greater then 10 MT yield? I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Alyeska wrote:Yes there is a canon source. There have been repeated statements of torpedoes having their yields altered just prior to firing. Now unless the ship can load new torpedoes very quickly that aren't normaly in stock, this means that the torpedoes are being loaded with an non-standard anti-matter configuration.

That seems to make sense to me. Wouldn't this also support the idea that the higher the yield required, the greater time requirement for loading each torpedo with said yield? Thus time constraints, say as in STTNG "Pegasus", might account for what might be perceived as "low" yields?

Kitsune wrote:Is the 24 mega-tons mentioned on Wongs Site for a photon torpedo an accepted number by most people here?

That is based off the non-canon TM. Mike has estimates from the episode "Pegasus" that point to kiloton level torpedoes.

Evil Borg Drone!!! wrote:One example that comes to mind is the incident where the E-D is being pursued by a alien probe(the one that makes Barcly superhuman smart). They fired phasers and determine them ineffective. They then want to use torpedoes, but Riker states that at the range the probe is, the detonation of the torpedoes could cripple the Enterprise. If I'm not mistaken, the Enterprise was at least a couple of kilometers away from the Enterprise at the time. Given the amount of energy a galaxy class starship should be able to handle without being crippled, wouldn't that imply a unusually high yield torpedo, or spread of torpedoes?

The same Galaxy that can be outright destroyed by a minor collision to the nacelle?

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote: That is based off the non-canon TM. Mike has estimates from the episode "Pegasus" that point to kiloton level torpedoes.

If this is the case, I would suggest that they may actually be better off with nukes then. I have noted that in many episodes they do seem pretty weak.

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:The same Galaxy that can be outright destroyed by a minor collision to the nacelle?

Photon torpedos appear to throw out no debris. Thus a Galaxy's vulnerability to kinetic impacts to the nacelles is not necessarily relevant to the probe incident.