Why doesn't Starfleet use Security Droids ??

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2003-12-01 09:21pm

Why does starfleet not use security droids instead of security officers?
In almost every situation where the enterprise was boarded, or there was an away team beamed over to another ship or planet surface, and they got in trouble, droids would have been better suited.

They can work in zero atmosphere
They can be hundreds of times more physically strong (just think about 50 ton jacks that you can buy at Rona)

I can go on and on, but why not make robots that do the security work? Shielding system, transporter system, arms with a full range of motion and dexterity so they can use keypads....onboard weapons, stun weapons etc.

So what reasons would starfleet have?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-12-01 09:24pm

Starfleet seems to have issues with basic robotics. The only humanoid robot we have seen is Data. So I will vote for Starfleet simply not having the technical know how. In the alterntaive, Picard did mention in Measure of a Man that one of his fears about Data like androids was using them as disposable crews. (BTW this line inspired my Shadowfleet idea) So Starfleet may not do it for ethical reasons.

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2003-12-01 09:32pm

I agree with you Stravo that starfleet has big issues about 'enslavement' of robots,

why not ask Data to help them make 'dumber' robots, so they aren't self conscious and can do the task at hand, and not feel that they are slaves,

terminators make good examples, tell a terminator it is a slave and it will just stair at you.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-12-01 09:41pm

Uh, Data tried making another android, but it ultimately failed.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2003-12-01 09:51pm

The reasoning behind the Starfleet's utter failure to use security robots or other automated security systems could be nothing more complicated than Starfleet's penchant for overengineered solutions. Seeing LCDR Data's failure to construct a Soong-type android, Starfleet may have despaired of making a sufficiently advanced android for security purposes and abandoned the project altogether.

PUBLIUS

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-01 09:53pm

Starfleet can't use robots as disposable troops because they have ethical concerns, and you can't make a dumber robot which will erase those ethical concerns because then it won't be capable of getting the job done (or it will do something stupid like opening fire on an ambasador one day and cause a diplomatic incident).

But that leaves aside the question of whether they are even capable of making such robots. The way Starfleet rushed in to seize Lal like some sort of Holy Grail is proof that Data is hardly well-understood technology in the Federation.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-12-01 10:31pm

Omega-13 wrote:terminators make good examples, tell a terminator it is a slave and it will just stair at you.

Ok, who didn't see that coming a mile off?

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2003-12-01 10:38pm

Holograms would be better. Prometheus's were equipped with holo emitters on all decks, and I think they'd probably refit ships to do the same. Also, if they could mass produce mobile emitters...

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-12-01 10:49pm

Aya wrote:Holograms would be better. Prometheus's were equipped with holo emitters on all decks, and I think they'd probably refit ships to do the same. Also, if they could mass produce mobile emitters...

If you're going to use holograms for security why not skip the BS of a hologram and just use force field traps instead.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2003-12-01 10:52pm

Stormbringer wrote:If you're going to use holograms for security why not skip the BS of a hologram and just use force field traps instead.

They have that already, at least they do in DS9.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-12-01 10:52pm

Aya wrote:Holograms would be better. Prometheus's were equipped with holo emitters on all decks, and I think they'd probably refit ships to do the same.

So what happens when the main power dies or must be used for other systems, as is very likely to happen in action. Right, the system cease working leaving the ship defenseless when it needs internal security the most. Great plan.

Also, if they could mass produce mobile emitters...

I'm sure that will be real efficient.

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2003-12-01 10:56pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Aya wrote:Holograms would be better. Prometheus's were equipped with holo emitters on all decks, and I think they'd probably refit ships to do the same.
So what happens when the main power dies or must be used for other systems, as is very likely to happen in action. Right, the system cease working leaving the ship defenseless when it needs internal security the most. Great plan.

Also, if they could mass produce mobile emitters...
I'm sure that will be real efficient.

Well, they can't use droids, so they might aswell use holograms. Also, the emitters could be on a independent power system.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-12-01 11:00pm

IIRC the mobile emitters are 29th century Fed technology.

Also as long as the main power stays on, one could conceivably use forcefields and holograms to deter boarders. And if the main power goes off, they're all screwed anyway, with no shields and no life support (I'm sure everyone here noticed how fast air seemed to run out aboard Fed ships)

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2003-12-01 11:23pm

Darth Wong wrote:Starfleet can't use robots as disposable troops because they have ethical concerns, and you can't make a dumber robot which will erase those ethical concerns because then it won't be capable of getting the job done (or it will do something stupid like opening fire on an ambasador one day and cause a diplomatic incident).

Data was trying to construct an equal, or even more so with his 'daughter' Starfleet doesn't need that sort of intelligence in a droid. K.I.S.S. keep it simple stupid comes to mind with this. A droid as intelligent as a super battle droid would be sufficient to take on any foe that has yet to board the enterprise. And for away missions, its perfect. Instead of beaming down a 6 man away team, you beam down 25 droids which are all expendable.

But that leaves aside the question of whether they are even capable of making such robots. The way Starfleet rushed in to seize Lal like some sort of Holy Grail is proof that Data is hardly well-understood technology in the Federation.

They can easily make the 'mind' of the robot, I mean holograms and programs in the holodeck are sufficient. Its just the bodies they'd need to build, and good bodies at that.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-12-01 11:28pm

The main computer is capable of creating sentient holocharacters, and while they can't replicate Data's brain, how hard could it be to build simple robots with built in phasers and sensors run by AIs housed in the main computer? Not an ideal solution and useless for away missions, but it would give the redshirts some extra punch on their own ship. If the main computer goes down during an incursion, the bots could switch over to drone mode. The limited intelligence that might prove a liability while escorting an ambassador wouldn't be much of a factor when you're in a situation where the bots don't need to know anything other than "shoot anything with a bumpy forehead".

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2003-12-01 11:30pm

Why would non-sentient androids be incapable of performing security duties? If all you need are extra eyes and ears, and the ability to find and report security problems, an android could be programmed to do that. Such an android would be programmed to observe, follow and report, but not to engage an opponent. Androids like that I can see allowing to operate on their own temporarily, just patrolling a set area or scouting.

As for combat androids, they could be programmed to be able to maneuver, find a target, fire a weapon and perform some basic hand-to-hand combat. These androids could be programmed to obey Starfleet personnel, and not to attack unarmed opponents. I would generally intersperse these androids among normal Starfleet ground personnel to provide extra numbers, with one exception. I'd program them to hold position if no Starfleet personnel are nearby, and fight until destroyed or out of ammo, then advance and try to auto-destruct near the enemy. If nothing else, they can slow up an enemy and save regular Starfleet personnel. They can also be dropped alone on or around a target and harass an enemy. Their job is to kill and take hits for people, not win battles on their own.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-01 11:31pm

Omega-13 wrote:Data was trying to construct an equal, or even more so with his 'daughter' Starfleet doesn't need that sort of intelligence in a droid. K.I.S.S.

Starfleet needs reasonable intelligence in a droid which it expects to be proficient in battle.

A droid as intelligent as a super battle droid would be sufficient to take on any foe that has yet to board the enterprise. And for away missions, its perfect. Instead of beaming down a 6 man away team, you beam down 25 droids which are all expendable.

You have yet to show that they can make a droid as intelligent as a SBD.

They can easily make the 'mind' of the robot, I mean holograms and programs in the holodeck are sufficient. Its just the bodies they'd need to build, and good bodies at that.

Two points:

1) Bullshit. The critical part of Lal was her mind, not her body. When her mind failed, Starfleet was no longer interested.
2) Hologram personalities are generated from computers which are too large to fit in Data's head, a single piece of stolen 29th century tech notwithstanding. They are not a relevant example.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-01 11:32pm

RedImperator wrote:The main computer is capable of creating sentient holocharacters, and while they can't replicate Data's brain, how hard could it be to build simple robots with built in phasers and sensors run by AIs housed in the main computer?

The main computer only created one sentient holocharacter in TNG. The rest were just CGI actors.

Not an ideal solution and useless for away missions, but it would give the redshirts some extra punch on their own ship. If the main computer goes down during an incursion, the bots could switch over to drone mode. The limited intelligence that might prove a liability while escorting an ambassador wouldn't be much of a factor when you're in a situation where the bots don't need to know anything other than "shoot anything with a bumpy forehead".

Could cause a problem when the Klingon ambassador comes aboard

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2003-12-01 11:35pm

Darth Wong wrote:
1) Bullshit. The critical part of Lal was her mind, not her body. When her mind failed, Starfleet was no longer interested.

yes but the point is, her mind was extremely advanced, and data couldn't figure out how to maintain it, might not be a problem with lower intelligence droids.

2) Hologram personalities are generated from computers which are too large to fit in Data's head, a single piece of stolen 29th century tech notwithstanding. They are not a relevant example.

Starfleet would have to build larger droids than Data, perhaps a very large droid (8 or 9 feet tall, and as wide as a fridge) with a large enough computer to give it enough intelligence

The main computer is the size of a large hot water tank in a house, and it runs the entire ship.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-01 11:50pm

Omega-13 wrote:Starfleet would have to build larger droids than Data, perhaps a very large droid (8 or 9 feet tall, and as wide as a fridge) with a large enough computer to give it enough intelligence

It would be much cheaper, easier, and more combat-effective to put computer-controlled phaser emitters in the ceilings.

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2003-12-02 12:06am

I've always wondered why they could not make a simple tracked robot, small in size with a claymore on the front. They could zip around the corridors looking for a group of enemy troops and when they find some. BOOOM! They would be great for meeting a boarding party cutting through the hull.

Kuroneko · Post by **Kuroneko** » 2003-12-02 12:08am

Darth Wong wrote:It would be much cheaper, easier, and more combat-effective to put computer-controlled phaser emitters in the ceilings.

Normally yes, but not with the way Starfleet handles computer control systems. A single virus or security break-in could then easily kill off the entire crew.

Burak Gazan · Post by **Burak Gazan** » 2003-12-02 12:11am

Darth Wong wrote:
Omega-13 wrote:Starfleet would have to build larger droids than Data, perhaps a very large droid (8 or 9 feet tall, and as wide as a fridge) with a large enough computer to give it enough intelligence
It would be much cheaper, easier, and more combat-effective to put computer-controlled phaser emitters in the ceilings.

This'll probably date me

but if I remember correctly, in an episode of ST-the animated series, that's exactly what the ENT-nil had for intruder defence (at least on the bridge)

edit: and as Kuroneko pointed out, that's also exactly what happened in said episode

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2003-12-02 12:14am

Darth Wong wrote:
Omega-13 wrote:Starfleet would have to build larger droids than Data, perhaps a very large droid (8 or 9 feet tall, and as wide as a fridge) with a large enough computer to give it enough intelligence
It would be much cheaper, easier, and more combat-effective to put computer-controlled phaser emitters in the ceilings.

Thats true, although can the main computer be accessed through the replicators in crews quaters?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-02 12:18am

Kuroneko wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:It would be much cheaper, easier, and more combat-effective to put computer-controlled phaser emitters in the ceilings.
Normally yes, but not with the way Starfleet handles computer control systems. A single virus or security break-in could then easily kill off the entire crew.

True, but then again, Starfleet would undoubtedly slave any combat droids into the main computer in the same manner, so the same problem applies.