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The Milky Way galaxy as it exists in the 23rd century between the events of Star Trek V and VI is somehow duplicated exactly with the duplicate flung forward in time into the 24th century, around the time of Star Trek: Nemesis. A wormhole is opened between the two galaxies with each end located inside their respective versions of Federation space, and for whatever reason the higher ups in both Federations decide that they absolutely positively must conquer the other.

The 24th century Federation has the advantage of faster ships and more powerful weapons, but the 23rd century's ships are much more well-built and have more competent crews. So, has the Federation's ability to wage war increased, decreased or remained the same during the period between Kirk and Picard's time?

Thsi question will try to be answered here

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Interesting concept, I have always felt that if given the same ships and their crews that Kirk would kick Picard's hiney

I think the old school Feds would put up a fight, but the future guys would kick the shit out of them.

Drooling Iguana wrote:The 24th century Federation has the advantage of faster ships and more powerful weapons, but the 23rd century's ships are much more well-built and have more competent crews. So, has the Federation's ability to wage war increased, decreased or remained the same during the period between Kirk and Picard's time?

Their tactical and strategic thinking has seriously deteriorated. However, the Federation has been continuously expanding over that time, and expansion means more resources, hence more of an industrial base, hence more ships.

Even if everything else were equal, I doubt that superior training and damage control/mitigation techniques would save a seriously outnumbered and outgunned 23rd century Federation.

Stravo wrote:Thsi question will try to be answered here 8)

A bit off-topic but your fanfic thread was locked: Sulu's original posting on Enterprise was as a physicist, not a helmsman (see: Where No Man has Gone Before.)

I think the 23rd century Federation would simply be overwhelmed, although it would be interesting to see a squadron of Constitution-refits accompanied by several Mirandas taking on a lone Galaxy-class.

Drooling Iguana wrote:

Stravo wrote:Thsi question will try to be answered here

A bit off-topic but your fanfic thread was locked: Sulu's original posting on Enterprise was as a physicist, not a helmsman (see: Where No Man has Gone Before.)

Yeah and if you read further Sulu arrives on the Enterprise and is assigned as a physicist against his will when Lee Kelso refuses to step down as helmsman.

Does the 23rd Century Feddies have that one tactician? The one who's exploits was required reading at SF Academy?

http://electricferret.com/fights/capn.htm Check that out. Not a complete answer, but its funny if nothing else. They also did a Borg vs. Death Star thing, should you want to go through the archives.

Aya wrote:Does the 23rd Century Feddies have that one tactician? The one who's exploits was required reading at SF Academy?

Do you mean General Kord? He was a Klingon. (STV:TFF)

Col. Crackpot wrote:

Aya wrote:Does the 23rd Century Feddies have that one tactician? The one who's exploits was required reading at SF Academy?

Do you mean General Kord? He was a Klingon. (STV:TFF)

No.

He was some SF officer. Stravo had an avatar of him about a month or so ago.

Edit: Garth of Izar. Good thing I didn't delete that PM.

I wonder if the initial enocunter would go a little something like this...

This depends, if we ignore the 'continuity' between trek incarnations, and scale the abilities of both off what has been observed...

The Ent-Refit had observably multimegaton photon torps in ST-1 that fragmented a 'mountain sized nickel-iron' asteroid. I'm not aware of comparable weapons power demonstrated in TNG+ trek.

TOS had weaker shields. One phaser strike or photon torpedo could kill a Constitution class. While TNG weapons aren't much more powerful, they have more powerful shields.

However, its pretty obvious who would win.

While they never have warp strafting, we see in Elaan of Troyus that a D6 can warp in from behind, blast a ship, and warp out, jumping all over the place and pounding the enemy, and not taking a hit.

In TNG they have lost this ability. Same in DS9 and Voyager.

So, TNG will have a nasty time hitting TOS ships

Praxis wrote:TOS had weaker shields. One phaser strike or photon torpedo could kill a Constitution class.

You must not have watched Star Trek 6, since the E-A took several photon torpedo strikes (one of them occurring after the shields had completely failed) and was still able to let loose a torpedo barrage on Chang's BoP once they managed to reveal it.

The Ent-Refit had observably multimegaton photon torps in ST-1 that fragmented a 'mountain sized nickel-iron' asteroid.

The phasers probably aren't too much weaker, given that Kirk's first reaction was to fire phasers to destroy the asteroid.

Uraniun235 wrote:

Praxis wrote:TOS had weaker shields. One phaser strike or photon torpedo could kill a Constitution class.

You must not have watched Star Trek 6, since the E-A took several photon torpedo strikes (one of them occurring after the shields had completely failed) and was still able to let loose a torpedo barrage on Chang's BoP once they managed to reveal it.

I think he means one TNG photon strike could. Though I doubt that with shields up......

However, TNG torpedoes are much more powerful. Only one was needed to destroy a Miranda class starship.

Kamakazie Sith wrote:However, TNG torpedoes are much more powerful. Only one was needed to destroy a Miranda class starship.

Was that Miranda the same as it would have been in the 23rd century, or had it gone through refits in the intervening years to retrofit 24th century technology onto it?

Uraniun235 wrote:

The Ent-Refit had observably multimegaton photon torps in ST-1 that fragmented a 'mountain sized nickel-iron' asteroid.

The phasers probably aren't too much weaker, given that Kirk's first reaction was to fire phasers to destroy the asteroid.

Indeed, but as they're DETs, they'd be half at most, which was IIRC approx 1 Mt. TNG+ never showed that kind of phaser firepower, that I know for a fact.

Certainly, if we treat them as seperate series, with the same models occasionally, the only advantage I can think of for the 24th C would be numbers...

Uraniun235 wrote:

Praxis wrote:TOS had weaker shields. One phaser strike or photon torpedo could kill a Constitution class.

You must not have watched Star Trek 6, since the E-A took several photon torpedo strikes (one of them occurring after the shields had completely failed) and was still able to let loose a torpedo barrage on Chang's BoP once they managed to reveal it.

I meant in the TOS episodes, not the the movies. The movies occur later. The Enterprise-A has much more powerful shields (i counted 7 torpedoes in ST 6). But then, the original enterprise killed another constitution in The Ultimate Computer with a quick phaser strike, and a freighter with one torpedo in Mudd's Women.

Their shields were waaaay weaker. Then in the movies they improved. Then in TNG they were weak again (The Enterprise-D was afraid to fire a photon at another ship that was nearby because they were afraid the explosion would destroy it, too). Then in the TNG movies they improved again, and continued improving through DS9 and Voyager.

But then, the original enterprise killed another constitution in The Ultimate Computer with a quick phaser strike, and a freighter with one torpedo in Mudd's Women.

It's been awhile since I've seen the episode, but I thought that for that exercise they had all defense systems cut down to minimum power, including shields... so that when M-5 attacked, the other Constitutions were unprepared and caught with paper-thin shields. I doubt a freighter would necessarily have particularly good shields.

Anyway, the title post of the thread stated that the 23rd century era in question was not TOS, but the time between Star Trek 5 and 6.

Drooling Iguana wrote:

Kamakazie Sith wrote:However, TNG torpedoes are much more powerful. Only one was needed to destroy a Miranda class starship.

Was that Miranda the same as it would have been in the 23rd century, or had it gone through refits in the intervening years to retrofit 24th century technology onto it?

Unknown......I can't remember what the bridge looked like. That would be the best indication.

NecronLord wrote:

Uraniun235 wrote:

The Ent-Refit had observably multimegaton photon torps in ST-1 that fragmented a 'mountain sized nickel-iron' asteroid.

The phasers probably aren't too much weaker, given that Kirk's first reaction was to fire phasers to destroy the asteroid.

Indeed, but as they're DETs, they'd be half at most, which was IIRC approx 1 Mt. TNG+ never showed that kind of phaser firepower, that I know for a fact.

Certainly, if we treat them as seperate series, with the same models occasionally, the only advantage I can think of for the 24th C would be numbers...

Do we know the size of the asteroid in TMP that was destroy by the Enterprise? Only reason I bring this up is because Gul Dukat used the weapons of a frieghter to fragment an asteroid.

Praxis wrote:

Uraniun235 wrote:

Praxis wrote:TOS had weaker shields. One phaser strike or photon torpedo could kill a Constitution class.

You must not have watched Star Trek 6, since the E-A took several photon torpedo strikes (one of them occurring after the shields had completely failed) and was still able to let loose a torpedo barrage on Chang's BoP once they managed to reveal it.

Their shields were waaaay weaker. Then in the movies they improved. Then in TNG they were weak again (The Enterprise-D was afraid to fire a photon at another ship that was nearby because they were afraid the explosion would destroy it, too). Then in the TNG movies they improved again, and continued improving through DS9 and Voyager.

The E-D shields we either down or very weak at the time.

They were up, on full. It wasn't the only time they made those comments- in a later episode they were afraid to fire a torpedo inside an asteroids cave because it might collapse on them. How much damage can an asteroid in space do if you blow a hole in the side and it starts collapsing? It can't have enough gravity to crush the ship- the shields ought to hold. Also a single proximity torpedo in a later episode sent 3 Maquis warships flying.