DS9 Weapons Systems in "Way Of The Warrior"

[Lord Poe]

I've heared the same excuses from Trekkies attempting to explain away the numerous weapon misses in the DS9 episode "Way of the Warrior" for years now. Some say the weapons were all firing at ships "off screen", or the Starfleet weapons married to the Cardassian computers were to blame for the misses. I see this all the time. What I DON'T see is evidence.

I took a few recent quotes from another thread to address here. Since Alyeska wanted to use the DS9 TM, (even though its not recognized as a valid source by Paramount) what the hell, I'll use examples culled from Star Trek The Magazine, which had "Officially Authorized by Paramount Pictures" emblazoned on the front of every magazine.

Excuse #1)

"The Starfleet weapons systems were hooked up to Cardassian computer systems"

and

"very little was Federation. The only Federation systems were the popup phasers from the landing pads and it was still hooked into the Cardassian computers."

I'd like to finally see PROOF of this. I've asked for years now, yet NO PROOF has been presented. Proof would be any dialogue, a Starfleet officer holding up a sign saying so, or even something that says the Starfleet weapons accuracy was hampered by being hooked into Cardassian computers.

I have seen ZERO proof that Starfleet would install FEDERATION defense weaponry, but NOT INSTALL Federation computer systems to FIRE that weaponry! How stupid would it be to install Terran weapons to UPGRADE the defenses of an alien space station, only to HANDICAP those upgrades by hobbling their efficiency by controlling them with alien tech that will make them MISS!!???!!

In Star Trek The Magazine #2 pg. 45 it says:

When the Federation took control of the station in 2369, the Cardassians had removed all of the vital equipment and weapons. In the years since then, the threat posed by the Dominion has meant that the station's strategic importance near the Bajoran wormhole has become vital to the defense of the Alpha Quadrant. This has prompted the Federation to arm Deep Space Nine to the teeth.

Integrated Starfleet phaser strips have been installed all over the station and photon torpedo launchers emerge from the docking pylons and the outer docking ring. Probably the most powerful weapons, however, are located in the three defense sails. These were always part of the station's structure, but have been upgraded with the latest Starfleet weapons.

Ok, we now see in writing that existing DS9 weaponry on the defense sails were upgraded with the "latest Starfleet weapons".

The defense sails protrude from three equidistant the Habitat Ring, gently curving up and out. Several weapons are built into the towers, including Starfleet phaser banks (which were installed shortly after the handover) and torpedo launchers. The primary launchers are of the flat, rectangular kind installed elsewhere on the station; these can fire photon torpedoes, which can inflict significant damage on their targets by generating matter-antimatter explosions in rapid sucession.

A list of DS9 weapons Starfleet installed. Here are some scan to illustrate these different systems:

http://h4h.com/louis/jpgs/ds91.jpg

http://h4h.com/louis/jpgs/ds92.jpg

http://h4h.com/louis/jpgs/ds93.jpg

Star Trek The Magazine #15 pg.31:

The upgrade of DS9 has brought it within Starfleet's acceptable parameters,

This seems to quash the claim that the latest Starfleet weapons installed in DS9 is somehow hampered by being run through Cardassian computers.

Star Trek The Magazine #4 pg.42 Officially authorized by Paramount Pictures

After the handover of Deep Space Nine in 2369 Starfleet engineers quickly found that removing the entire Cardassian control interfaces would be hugely impractical, so a series of modifications were carried out to link Federation technologies to the existing systems without causing major disruptions to the running of the station.

Perhaps this was the origin of the confusion? Basically, the above is saying that the Feds replaced the 486 computers with Pentium 4s, but kept the 486 keyboards.

I have found NOTHING that agrees with the claims made by those that try to find excuses for the misses in "Way of the Warrior". Can we FINALLY have the cards on the table here?

[MKSheppard]

Wow, nice work Poe, course, the trekkies will find some way to disagree with you

[Sea Skimmer]

Even if the computer system were shitty, it wouldn't explain why Photon torpedoes, which are not command guided, would fly right by targets and race off into space. Of course the standard answer to that IIRC is that there where more invisible ships off screen they where aimed at.

Well I suppose someone could also argue that the guidance systems where turned off and they where simply bring fired dumb. But that's just fucking stupid.

[Tsyroc]

I think that most of the torpedoes we see firing in "Way of the Warrior" are those micro torpedoes and I'm not sure if they are really guided like the full sized torps are.

I have a bit of a problem with this weapons upgrade.

http://h4h.com/louis/jpgs/ds92.jpg

The little revolving things pop out of the side of the sail and can fire the micro torps an have phasers on them from which they can also shoot.
The original Cardassian weapons are still installed on that sail. I don't see how the extendable revolvo launcher/phaser can fit right behind the original full sized torpedo launcher and be able to pop in and out like they do. Plus, I think those sails also had phasers and tractor beams on them as well. IIRC the phasers were fired from the segments surrounding the torpedo port and the tractor beam was emitted from the forward part of the top of the sail.


This whole episode and the later one where the Dominon tries basically the same tactics as the Klingons were fun eye candy but don't stand up well to criticism. DS9 just blazes away with torps and micro torps. Very few seem to be guided but they often do a heck of a lot more damage than the torps we see fired from ships. A lot of Klingon ships get completely obliterated by what looks like one or two hits. Even if they are unshielded at the time would they go up like that? The movies and the tv shows seem contradictory on this since in the movies ships can take unshielded hits from torps without being destroyed but in the tv shows its seems like the get wasted by torps as soon as their shielding is gong.

[Sharp-kun]

Aside from that, why is DS9 targeting ships that aren't a threat at that point? In one scene, we see torpedos and phasers shoot right past the Negh'Var into nothing (where no weapons fire is originating). Why are they targeting non-threatening ships, when they have the Negh'Var bearing down on them about to let rip with with a torpedo barrage that could be very damaging?

If I'm being attacked by a mob, and I have a gun, I shoot at the guy who's about to punch me in the face, not his friend thats a good distance away and just watching.

If you can prove the ships exist, it points more to the stupidity of starfleet.

[Jason von Evil]

Meh, I think battles are better if there are misses.

[Dark Primus]

Aside from that, why is DS9 targeting ships that aren't a threat at that point? In one scene, we see torpedos and phasers shoot right past the Negh'Var into nothing (where no weapons fire is originating). Why are they targeting non-threatening ships, when they have the Negh'Var bearing down on them about to let rip with with a torpedo barrage that could be very damaging?

Well technically all Klingon ships were enemies in that battle, you don't hold back when your back is against the wall.
Sisko perhaps just wanted to reduce their numbers, I doubt he wanted to destroy the Klingon flagship, he certainly had the firepower to do so.
But it seems the torpedoes only have limited guidance, otherwise I doubt they would hit anything. Perhaps they don't have the resources to mount fully guidance equipment into every one of the 5.000 torpedoes?

Another thing I find to be very strange according to this link Poe posted...
http://h4h.com/louis/jpgs/ds92.jpg
It says "The rotating phaser and microtorpedo turret emerges from the defense sail when activated."

If they were only microtorpedoes how the hell could they have caused so much damage to Klingon and Dominion forces? Or am I missing something?

[Sharp-kun]

Well technically all Klingon ships were enemies in that battle, you don't hold back when your back is against the wall.

Yes, but targeting the ones that aren't actively firing on you is stupid when you've got targets that are strafing you. The torpedo's and phasers were vanishing into the blackness, and we saw no detonation that might indicate a hit, so any ships would be at extreme range. Deal with the immediate threat, then the rest.

Not really relevant though, as the ships don't exist.

[Tsyroc]

Another thing I find to be very strange according to this link Poe posted...
http://h4h.com/louis/jpgs/ds92.jpg
It says "The rotating phaser and microtorpedo turret emerges from the defense sail when activated."

If they were only microtorpedoes how the hell could they have caused so much damage to Klingon and Dominion forces? Or am I missing something?

That's one of the things I have been wondering about as well.

[Alyeska]

Two things.

One, only the DS9 TM says micro torpedoes IIRC. Since Poe loves to say how uncanon that is...

Two, Opps is clearly seen running Cardassian computer systems and the only hint at anything Starfleet is the uniforms. All of the computer systems shown in the entire show on the Station are Cardassian systems. The weapon systems in the sails already existed before hand. The only added weapon systems were the phasers that popped up in the inner docking ring.

[Sharp-kun]

The weapon systems in the sails already existed before hand. The only added weapon systems were the phasers that popped up in the inner docking ring.

As I recall the station was stripped of all weapons by the Cardassians when they abandoned it, thus new weapons would be Starfleet.

[Alyeska]

The weapon systems in the sails already existed before hand. The only added weapon systems were the phasers that popped up in the inner docking ring.

As I recall the station was stripped of all weapons by the Cardassians when they abandoned it, thus new weapons would be Starfleet.

Incorrect. It was stripped of much of its systems and they only left 6 photon torpedoes. The weapon sails were still very much in existance when the Cardassians left.

[Sharp-kun]

The weapon systems in the sails already existed before hand. The only added weapon systems were the phasers that popped up in the inner docking ring.

As I recall the station was stripped of all weapons by the Cardassians when they abandoned it, thus new weapons would be Starfleet.

Incorrect. It was stripped of much of its systems and they only left 6 photon torpedoes. The weapon sails were still very much in existance when the Cardassians left.

And would have been equipeed with Starfleet phasers and torpedos.

The physical sails were there, but had no weapons.

[Alyeska]

As I recall the station was stripped of all weapons by the Cardassians when they abandoned it, thus new weapons would be Starfleet.

Incorrect. It was stripped of much of its systems and they only left 6 photon torpedoes. The weapon sails were still very much in existance when the Cardassians left.

And would have been equipeed with Starfleet phasers and torpedos.

The physical sails were there, but had no weapons.

Incorrect. It was specificaly stated the Cardassians left behind 6 torpedoes. That was their most powerful weapon so they used that in the bluff against the Cardassians. BTW, they also fired several phasers in the first battle against the Cardassians. Much of what DS9 had was Cardassian to begin with. Years later they had Fed torpedoes. As to the phasers, I suppose they might have added a new phaser array to each sail because there was a "strapon" on each sail.

This doesn't change the fact that the internal computer systems are still Cardassian.

[Sharp-kun]

Incorrect. It was specificaly stated the Cardassians left behind 6 torpedoes. That was their most powerful weapon so they used that in the bluff against the Cardassians. BTW, they also fired several phasers in the first battle against the Cardassians. Much of what DS9 had was Cardassian to begin with. Years later they had Fed torpedoes. As to the phasers, I suppose they might have added a new phaser array to each sail because there was a "strapon" on each sail.

I'll have to watch "Emissary" again, as I don't recall the exact specifics, but I remember a few phaser shots, then it either failed or was disabled. Armament was minimal at best.

Regardless, by "Way of the Warrior" major upgrades had taken place, as stated by O'Brian, and demonstrated in the battle. What technology would have been used for that? Starfleet.

This doesn't change the fact that the internal computer systems are still Cardassian.

And as already stated:

The upgrade of DS9 has brought it within Starfleet's acceptable parameters

What we see (misses) are acceptable for Starfleet.

[Ender]

This doesn't change the fact that the internal computer systems are still Cardassian.

You keep repeating that, but you haven't posted any quotes or anything to back it. In jis post Poe showed that just looking at the computers doesn't necessarily mean that they are still Cardassian.

[Alyeska]

This doesn't change the fact that the internal computer systems are still Cardassian.

You keep repeating that, but you haven't posted any quotes or anything to back it. In jis post Poe showed that just looking at the computers doesn't necessarily mean that they are still Cardassian.

You know... If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and looks like a duck it must be a CHICKEN!

We have no evidence that its a Federation computer system. NONE. All the systems and hardware is still very much Cardassian. This is visualy and auditory confirmed almost every episode.

[Lord Poe]

This doesn't change the fact that the internal computer systems are still Cardassian.

You keep repeating that, but you haven't posted any quotes or anything to back it. In jis post Poe showed that just looking at the computers doesn't necessarily mean that they are still Cardassian.

Exactly. I'm asking for PROOF, after all these years of simply stating, "oh, those are Cardassian computers controlling those new Starfleet upgrades which were brought up to Starfleet standards."

Don't dismiss the entire thread with the same things I've heard since the premire of WOTW. Let's have some proof, finally. Anyone? I think I've more than presented proof of my stance.

[Alyeska]

This doesn't change the fact that the internal computer systems are still Cardassian.

You keep repeating that, but you haven't posted any quotes or anything to back it. In jis post Poe showed that just looking at the computers doesn't necessarily mean that they are still Cardassian.

Exactly. I'm asking for PROOF, after all these years of simply stating, "oh, those are Cardassian computers controlling those new Starfleet upgrades which were brought up to Starfleet standards."

Don't dismiss the entire thread with the same things I've heard since the premire of WOTW. Let's have some proof, finally. Anyone? I think I've more than presented proof of my stance.

Burden of proof lies on you Poe. All evidence indicates they are still Cardassian thanks to how the systems opperate and visualy. Furthermore the Cardassians and Dominion who took control of the station had absolutely no problem running the station. Hell, after the computer core was fried they had to replace the systems themselves to fix it and things still remained the same.

[Sharp-kun]

Burden of proof lies on you Poe. All evidence indicates they are still Cardassian ....

.. and within Starfleet standards....

[Lord Poe]

You know... If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and looks like a duck it must be a CHICKEN!

You are ignoring all the proof that I presented in this thread with the same tired excuse. If evidence for your position is so prevalent, please present at least ONE EXAMPLE.

We have no evidence that its a Federation computer system. NONE.

Star Trek The Magazine #2 pg. 45:

When the Federation took control of the station in 2369, the Cardassians had removed all of the vital equipment and weapons. In the years since then, the threat posed by the Dominion has meant that the station's strategic importance near the Bajoran wormhole has become vital to the defense of the Alpha Quadrant. This has prompted the Federation to arm Deep Space Nine to the teeth.

Integrated Starfleet phaser strips have been installed all over the station and photon torpedo launchers emerge from the docking pylons and the outer docking ring. Probably the most powerful weapons, however, are located in the three defense sails. These were always part of the station's structure, but have been upgraded with the latest Starfleet weapons.

Please refute.

All the systems and hardware is still very much Cardassian.

Star Trek The Magazine #2 pg. 45:

When the Federation took control of the station in 2369, the Cardassians had removed all of the vital equipment and weapons.

Star Trek The Magazine #15 pg.31:

The upgrade of DS9 has brought it within Starfleet's acceptable parameters,

This is visualy and auditory confirmed almost every episode.

Fine. Then you'll have no trouble digging up at least ONE example that refutes all the above.



In case you are confused as to what "interface" means:

http://www.computeruser.com/resources/d ... ookup=2486

A shared boundary where two or more systems meet; or the means by which communication is achieved at this boundary. An interface can be between hardware and hardware (such as sockets and plugs, or electrical signals), hardware and software, software and software, human and computer (such as a mouse or keyboard and display screen).

[Lord Poe]

Burden of proof lies on you Poe.

See the beginning of this thread. Refute or concede. Hand waving won't do it. Provide some PROOF, for once.

[Lord Poe]

One, only the DS9 TM says micro torpedoes IIRC. Since Poe loves to say how uncanon that is.

Star Trek, The Magazine says this as well.

[Patrick Ogaard]

Aside from that, why is DS9 targeting ships that aren't a threat at that point? In one scene, we see torpedos and phasers shoot right past the Negh'Var into nothing (where no weapons fire is originating). Why are they targeting non-threatening ships, when they have the Negh'Var bearing down on them about to let rip with with a torpedo barrage that could be very damaging?

If I'm being attacked by a mob, and I have a gun, I shoot at the guy who's about to punch me in the face, not his friend thats a good distance away and just watching.

If you can prove the ships exist, it points more to the stupidity of starfleet.

My interpretation of the phaser shots and the torpedo fire zipping right past the Negh'var to (presumably) target some other vessel is that Sisko and possibly Starfleet command finally recognized that the Klingons are irrational at the best of times and barking mad when they really get going.

There was likely a standing order not to deliberately target the flagship, except at Sisko's express order. Had the Klingons lost their Chancellor, the apparently custom-built flagship, and their most respected military commander, all in one fell swoop, the Klingon response would have almost certainly been a concerted attempt at genocide, something that the Klingons seem to have no particular moral problems with when their dander is up.

The other outright misses and cases of shooting past ships to target other vessels, though, I'd attribute to a combination of poor target choices and possibly targeting programs designed to maintain fire against already damaged targets. That is, the torps, and possibly the phasers as well, may be continuing to pound vessels whose shields had already been weakened during earlier attack runs. A Trek ship whose shields have been merely worn down by enemy fire will, if allowed to retire temporarily from the fight, be able to return to the fight at full capability. As an example, the old-style (D-7/K't'inga) cruiser that was simply hanging in space in formation before a string of torpedoes hits it and blows it to bits could well have been part of the initial formation of old cruisers that led the attack.

Given the common inability of Trek weaponry to score one-hit kills on shielded targets, combined with the relatively rapid recovery of Trek shields, it would be sensible to make an effort to take out those attackers whose shields had already been worn down, especially in a situation where one heavily shielded station is defending against a large fleet of less heavily shielded ships attacking in small waves in order to weaken the station's shields and initiate a boarding battle to capture the station.

Or, alternatively, the targeting capabilities of DS9's weapons were much less than perfect.

[Sharp-kun]

Or, alternatively, the targeting capabilities of DS9's weapons were much less than perfect.

Correct. There is no evidence that any other ships exist.