What if Federation never held back.

Dark Primus · Post by **Dark Primus** » 2003-11-22 05:12pm

What if throughout Federation history they never held back their forces in times of war and made constant research in new weapons and defences, and had more than enough warships to protect their space and still have plenty of ships in reservs.
Think of the politicans who rules the Feds are like current Bush administration.
So how do you think the Feds would have handled the Romulan War, Klingon War, Cardassian War, the Borg invasion, second Borg invasion, Dominion War etc.

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2003-11-22 05:20pm

Certainly some of these really good well-thought-out fan designs I see would probly be Canon.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2003-11-22 05:22pm

Heres one idea from Happytarget.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2003-11-22 05:23pm

you'd likely wind up with the universe in the mirror-mirror episode of TOS.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2003-11-22 05:31pm

Well, there was a novel about this wherein the E-D was taken into an evil parallel universe where the Federation had done just that. I forget the title. But the Evil Enterprise D (hereafter called the EE-D

) had a faster warp engine, a cloak (they had refused treaty and stomped the Romulans all the way back to Romulus and made them vassals), weapons arrays in plenty and powerful enough that I speculate that they could have done a BDZ (note: speculation, no need to tear my head off), every crew member walked around armed at all times with big knives and ridiculously powerful phasers without a stun setting, and so on and so forth. They were looking to invade the ST universe as seen in the series and take over. Could have done it easy; I think the EE-D would be able to stand up to a Sovereign class and win.

Like I said, I don't remember the title. But if you can track down the book, it might help you.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-11-22 05:36pm

The Federation would kick unholy ass. Its pretty clear from what we see that the single biggest thing holding back the Federation is its politics. This controls how its captains think, it limits the strategic thinking of the Admirals, and it influences the ship designs. If the Federation changed their mindset from Idealist to Realist while changing from the Federation into the Confederation and still trying to keep its values but acknowledging reality, the Confederation would kick ass. They could build purpose specific Warships, they wouldn't be affraid to negotiate agressively, and little could stop them.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2003-11-22 05:46pm

Minor nitpick: Confederation in usually used to denote a weaker government system than a federation (federal). That's why the Articles of Confederation didn't work for the United States, and led to their abandonment and adoption of the stronger, more centralized federal system in the current Constitution. Also, the Confederacy (which is the example you're drawing your name from, I'm sure) was too decentralized to do anything. The Confederate states acted independently and could not be required to do jack shit by the central government. That was a big facter in the Confederacy's fall. Although they would have lost anyway (as dictated by the great disparity in resources, technology, and manpower between the two sides), they could have put up more of a fight.

Nitpick over. We now return you ot your regularly scheduled thread.

Dark Primus · Post by **Dark Primus** » 2003-11-22 06:01pm

Shinzon had the resources of one planet and built the Scimitar, a warship more powerful than a Sovereign. The Feds has the resources of many powerful member worlds and they haven't produced any weapons that exceeds one gigaton in firepower.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-11-22 06:58pm

The federation would design a wedge shaped ship with no dopey nacells on the sides, and begin making people with upper class english accents bridge crew?

Joking aside when the feddies put their minds to it their R&D goes at a rate that is remarkable. Pre-TNG the federation has designed 3 major classes of ship, the Nebula, Ambassador and Galaxy, Post TNG, reaching times of war they design the Defiant, Interpid, Akira, Steamrunner, Soverign, and i'm sure many more in a non-front line ships. The fact that the Defiant, Akira and Steamrunner could be developed and manufactured in such numbers in so short a time is quite remarkable. You have to admit when the Federation gets a bee in it's bonnet it moves, imagine what they could do if they where on a perminant state of alert.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2003-11-22 11:46pm

They'd be more like the FASA version of Star Trek, spitting out hundreds of ships a year.

For example, in FASA RPG of Star Trek, the Federation had actual assault cruisers to carry several thousand troops (Continent Class I believe)

The Silence and I · Post by **The Silence and I** » 2003-11-23 12:34am

*Dreams of what will sadly never come to pass*

Just think about what they could cobble together after decades, nay centuries! of self defeating politics: the Defiant. It is small, it is far more powerful for its size than any federation, Romulan, Klingon or even Dominion ship. It is a taste, a very small taste. Imagine the tech used in the Defiant existed at that level >50 years ago. Imagine they built 700meter vessels with proportional firepower for volume. Then imagine the same policies that produced that 50 years ago carried to present day. *Shiver*

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2003-11-23 12:46am

They'd have small 25-meter-long starfighters that can carry 1.2 GIGAtons of firepower in the form of twelve one-hundred-megaton fighter-launchable photon torpedoes. Their guns would be no laughing matter either. And when some yahoo builds and starts mass-producing a fighter-launchable quantum torpedo, Watch Out Enemies of the Federation!

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2003-11-23 12:56am

Well, it'd basically be like this.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-11-23 01:00am

There's also something to be said for the openess and freedom of Federation society that allows for the creativity that gives the Federation the technical edge it has. A more dictatorial regime could have led to a more Cardasian or Romulan tech level. I think the message being sent in TOS and onward is that the reason why the Federation was so powerful and technically adept was because they were the society that they were.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2003-11-23 01:08am

What, Communism? For my rebuttal of that, see the history of the Soviet Union.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-11-23 01:13am

Rogue 9 wrote:What, Communism? For my rebuttal of that, see the history of the Soviet Union.

Care to show how TOS era Trek was Communist ass?

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2003-11-23 01:35am

Hmm. All transport owned by the government, no money, and the computer lab's closing so I'll have to finish tomorrow.

Xon · Post by **Xon** » 2003-11-23 01:44am

Stravo wrote:There's also something to be said for the openess and freedom of Federation society that allows for the creativity that gives the Federation the technical edge it has. A more dictatorial regime could have led to a more Cardasian or Romulan tech level. I think the message being sent in TOS and onward is that the reason why the Federation was so powerful and technically adept was because they were the society that they were.

Nice try at sidetracking the thread.

The original post does not depict them as a dictatorial regime.

The original post was not asking what they would look like as a dictatorial regime, but as a regime which wasnt near toothless.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-11-23 01:59am

Dark Primus wrote:What if throughout Federation history they never held back their forces in times of war and made constant research in new weapons and defences, and had more than enough warships to protect their space and still have plenty of ships in reservs.
Think of the politicans who rules the Feds are like current Bush administration.

What evidence do you have that they were holding back in the first place? We see the crews of starships, not the Federation's weapons research labs. Aside from that, we saw plenty of new technology pop up during the course of the Dominion War.

What makes the Federation pathetic from a war capacity standpoint isn't a lack of creativity. It's their mindset. They are completely inept at warfare, especially ground-based. Their basic philosophies have to change.

So what you're essentially asking is, "How would the Federation handle these wars if they weren't the Federation?" That's a pointless question. When the US government is "holding back" on development of new weapons, it usually means a cut in the military budget. The main stumbling block in the way of research and development is the subjection to approval of a new technology in the Federation. I don't ever recall an instance where we see some Federation bureaucrat saying, "Nope, we're not arming our ships with this" in reference to some superweapon. So, if the roadblock in the way of new weapons development isn't money (we don't have any clue how the Federation distributes resources to various agencies, nor do we ever see weapons designers ranting about lack of funding), and it's not political, then what is it that's "holding the Federation back"? Why, that would be the Federation itself.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-11-23 02:21am

Alyeska wrote:The Federation would kick unholy ass. Its pretty clear from what we see that the single biggest thing holding back the Federation is its politics. This controls how its captains think, it limits the strategic thinking of the Admirals, and it influences the ship designs. If the Federation changed their mindset from Idealist to Realist while changing from the Federation into the Confederation and still trying to keep its values but acknowledging reality, the Confederation would kick ass. They could build purpose specific Warships, they wouldn't be affraid to negotiate agressively, and little could stop them.

Sorry, but that's precisely what we've seen in the Federation during the Dominion War: purpose-built warships, aggressive negotiation, even outright ruthless politics at times. While it definitely makes them more dangerous, I think you exaggerate the magnitude of this change.

Keep in mind that "not holding back" is not a zero-cost option: a massive militarization program would put a great burden on the civilian populace and their general infrastructure.

One must ask if they would tolerate such sacrifices which they do not feel to be necessary, and if they don't, then how is one to push them through? Become the dictatorial regime that some here are saying is a red herring? And what happens to their expansion program, if their standard of living (historically the only reason for anyone to join) drops off a cliff? Will they start having trouble signing up new members? Will they start losing old ones? How many of the Federation's members are in the club because of their profound admiration for Federation ideals, as opposed to simple expediency?

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-11-23 03:39am

By the way, the Federation was stupid enough to sign a treaty which prevented them from developing a cloaking device, but they developed one anyway. That's hardly indicative of "holding back."

Dark Primus · Post by **Dark Primus** » 2003-11-23 08:21am

Durandal wrote: What evidence do you have that they were holding back in the first place?

Well did we see any Fed ships in the TNG era that could be called a warship?
Perhaps the Pheonix in "The Wounded" could be called as a warship but since it was carrying a sensor pod instead of the weapon pod on its back I wonder.
But I am talking about having enough ships to protect all of their important systems, which they didn't have in the Dominion war.

Durandal wrote: We see the crews of starships, not the Federation's weapons research labs. Aside from that, we saw plenty of new technology pop up during the course of the Dominion War.

Yes but not enough ships. Dominion had taken a large bite out of Fed territory till they started to get beaten back by the Romulans.

Durandal wrote: What makes the Federation pathetic from a war capacity standpoint isn't a lack of creativity. It's their mindset. They are completely inept at warfare, especially ground-based. Their basic philosophies have to change.

I agree.

Durandal wrote: So what you're essentially asking is, "How would the Federation handle these wars if they weren't the Federation?"

No the same Federation but different attitude to their enemies.

Durandal wrote: That's a pointless question.

In what way? I want to see a different possible scenario on how the Feds would handle different type of crises.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-11-23 08:53am

Rogue 9 wrote:Hmm. All transport owned by the government, no money, and the computer lab's closing so I'll have to finish tomorrow.

THE TOS?!

So McCoy OFFERING CREDITS to an INDEPENDENT CONTRACTOR to SHUTTLE him to Genesis is obvious indication that they have no money or free business in TOS(source: Star Trek III)

You did watch the shows and the movies...right?!

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-11-23 10:01am

Rogue 9 wrote:Hmm. All transport owned by the government, no money, and the computer lab's closing so I'll have to finish tomorrow.

Yet, Scotty bought a boat....fascinating.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-11-23 10:01am

"Price you name. Money I got."

"Place you name, Money I name, otherwise bargain ... no."

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

What if Federation never held back.

What if Federation never held back.

Re: What if Federation never held back.

Re: What if Federation never held back.