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Firstly, I made this post in Star Wars vs Star Trek because I had this question in relation with what its effect would be in the ST vs SW scenario, however since its mainly a Star Trek question, it might be better for the Pure Star Trek section, and if a moderator feels that, please move it.

Okay, now the question. How can the self-replicating mines seen in DS9 possibly work?

Correct me where I am wrong here.
Replicators work on the principle of converting energy into matter. It uses the energy generated by the ship and turns it into matter, such as a cup of black coffee.

If you work E=MC^2 backwards, you get E/C^2-M.
This means that a whole lot of energy gives you a little bit of matter.
Which means that replicators must take an enormous amount of energy (as a side note, I wonder about the insane amount of energy a Holodeck must take, since it is constantly replicating objects such as the food that is eaten).

Now, I think we can assume that the self replicating mines are powered by either nuclear fusion or a matter/antimatter reaction (as those are the only power sources that we know of used by the Federation), most likely the antimatter.

These mines must be big enough to:
1) House a cloaking device
2) House a replicator large enough to replicate peice by peice another mine like itself
3) House thrusters large enough to move one mine to take the place of another
4) House a power generator of some sort large enough to power the cloaking device, replicator, thrusters, AND cause an explosion large enough to damage a ship.
5) be inconspicuous- you don't want a mine so big that you can hit it by firing blind toward the wormhole and blow the whole thing up.

So, these mines must be fairly large, but not huge.
Now, lets say a mine is blown up. What happens?
The mine next to it begins replicating the destroyed one.
But given the power requirements to do this, assuming the mine has a M/AM reactor, would almost certainly take all the antimatter on the mine, and even that might not be enough. It'd need a huge amount of antimatter, and unless the Federation found some way to compress antimatter without blowing it sky high, there is no way a mine could replicate more than one mine, if even that, and still have enough antimatter left over to cause a significant detonation.

And if the mine uses nuclear fusion, they wouldn't have NEAR enough power to replicate another mine.

So how can the mines POSSIBLY work?

The only conclusions I can think of is that they somehow draw energy from the wormhole, which would make them useless anywhere else, or that Q or a rather stupid writer helped them make magical mines.

Can someone smart help me figure this out???

Praxis wrote: Replicators work on the principle of converting energy into matter.

Wrong, they use pre-existinf matter.

Praxis wrote:Okay, now the question. How can the self-replicating mines seen in DS9 possibly work?

Simple. They fuck the First Law of Thermodynamics in the ass. Repeatedly. Without lube.

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:

Wrong, they use pre-existinf matter.

Okay, so they rearrange molecules.

But how could they do this with the mines?

Either they stuff a whole lot of useless matter into the mines (and they couldn't possibly fit a mines worth of matter into a mine...lol), which would result in one utterly stuffed mine (and would add useless matter to absorb the brunt of the mines' detonation, assuming there was enough room to add something explosive into the mine to actually make it explode), or they'd have to mix the antimatter with matter to turn it into energy then turn it all into matter and use that for the replicators, in which case they'd have no room for all the antimatter neccessary to replicate a single mine as I mentioned in the post.

Praxis wrote:Okay, so they rearrange molecules.

But how could they do this with the mines?

-snip

Presumably, by each mine containing (just as an example) enough spare matter/anti-matter to make 1/100th of a mine. When a mine is destroyed, 500 mines send some of their spare to be reassembled for a replacement. The mines might also have some detection thing where if they are about to detonate, they send their spare M/AM to other mines around it.

From the Special Technology overview page on the main site:


Self-Replicating Mines

During the Dominion War, the Federation Starfleet engineering group on Deep Space Nine devised an ingenious method for blocking Dominion access to the Alpha Quadrant of the Milky Way galaxy. The Dominion's pitiful warp-drive technology kept them from being able to simply travel directly to the Alpha Quadrant, so they had to travel through the Bajoran wormhole.

To stop Jem'Hadar incursions, the crew of DS9 built a series of mines which were capable of replicating replacements, by using the replication technology described previously on this page. Of course, the obvious problem with this system is the need to come up with raw material for new mines, since we know that replication requires suitable raw material to work with. To solve this problem, the crew of DS9 engineered a new class of mine. Perhaps it would be best to simply quote the DS9 TM and its description of this technology:

"The basic shell of the mine is adapted from an octagonal duranium cargo container 1.76 meters across and 1.85 meters tall, and outfitted with off-the-shelf equipment for detonation, station keeping, and replication for filling in gaps in the wormhole perimeter. The explosive system consists of a stripped-down standard photon torpedo warhead and includes only the central combiner tank into which the cryogenic deuterium and antideuterium have been premixed, but kept separated by a long-term toroidal magnetic field driver. The contact and proximity sensors would command the driver to collapse the field, allowing the matter and antimatter to detonate. Complete fusing of the mine envelope was delayed until the entire shell was in place, in order to prevent warhead fratricide."

"Station-keeping thrusters were cannibalized from a class-1 instrumented probe and connected to a single cold-gas nitrogen pressure tank. Modulation of the warhead magnetic field was also used to keep the mines aligned within a four-frequency icosahedron geodesic sphere. A neutrino source counter was incorporated into the sensor package to keep the mines at a uniform distance from the wormhole opening."

"The replicator system was designed to accomodate a swarm detonation of up to twenty mines and still maintain the total shell. The replicator was a kludge of Cardassian and Starfleet types and included a raw-matter supply container able to contribute enough mass to build one sixty-fifth of a complete mine. Mass for any one new mine was transported through the replicator's subspace emitters from as many mines away as was necessary, in a bucket-brigade system. As distributed over the entire shell, enough mass was stored to replace over 2,500 mines. In the event the mass supply dwindled below 85 percent, the replicator sections were designed to extract particles from the zero-point vacuum domain to replenish the system. The threshold was set deliberately high because of the long lead time required to produce small numbers of particle pairs."

As can be seen from the above information, although the self-replicating mine is an interesting piece of technology, it is hardly limitless. Some Federation cultists have taken to claiming that we would be unable to penetrate such a minefield, but it is clear from the above text that a swarm detonation of only 20 mines is sufficient to open a breach in the minefield, and that the destruction of only 2,500 mines would be enough to overcome the minefield's replication capabilities. The glacial pace of ZPE-sourced particle replenishment would not prevent the inevitable destruction of the minefield with CGT-assisted targeting. We estimate that a single CGT-equipped Star Destroyer would be capable of destroying over 2,500 mines in as little as 8.5 minutes, particularly since they are completely immobile and therefore easy to destroy once they are identified with the CGT sensors

I would suspect the mines convert the battle debreis into material for use in replication. This is the only way a mine field can be self sustaining and hold off an enemy at a choke point. If the mines had to use their own material to create new mines the field would eventualy dry up.

Alyeska wrote:I would suspect the mines convert the battle debreis into material for use in replication. This is the only way a mine field can be self sustaining and hold off an enemy at a choke point. If the mines had to use their own material to create new mines the field would eventualy dry up.

And the latter possibility is dismissed out of hand because ...?

Battle debris won't do you much good if it doesn't happen to contain the specific materials you need for making more mines.

Wow a good interesting post from a Newbie? Whats the world coming too

Newbie to the forum, but not newbie to ST vs SW
Check the sig

The tech manuals description sheds some light...but raises more questions.

If the entire shell of mines had enough extra mass for 2,500 extra mines, and each mine carries 1/65th of a mine's worth, that means that there were at least 1,625,000 mines. Thats, well, insane. That must have been INSANELY expensive for the Federation to build, and as a result, not very practical for more than one or two minefields.

Furthermore if the minefield has over 1.6 million mines in it, and only has enough to replicate 2,500, it only has enough extra materials to replicate 1/650th of its original size, or .15%. Which means the self-replicating part doesn't really help it that much. Which also means that it WOULD be possible to detonate the minefield without it replicating itself.

A few other points:
How can the mines use transporters to beam the extra mass or antimatter between each other, when they are cloaked?
Isn't cloaking technology forbidden for the Federation by a treaty with the Romulans? Why can the mines cloak?
Can't the Dominion pick up the energy traces from the transporters and single out the location of the mines?

Either the TM is incorrect and just technobabbling, or that minefield is highly impractical. Or I miscalculated somewhere

Praxis wrote:Furthermore if the minefield has over 1.6 million mines in it, and only has enough to replicate 2,500, it only has enough extra materials to replicate 1/650th of its original size, or .15%. Which means the self-replicating part doesn't really help it that much. Which also means that it WOULD be possible to detonate the minefield without it replicating itself.

The quote also states that the mines can draw matter from the "zero-point vacuum domain," though that's also stated to be a slow process, so it may not affect your calculations a great deal.

Isn't cloaking technology forbidden for the Federation by a treaty with the Romulans? Why can the mines cloak?

I think they bummed the cloaking technology off of the Klingons, but I'm not sure.

Can't the Dominion pick up the energy traces from the transporters and single out the location of the mines?

You'd think so, especially since there'd be a spike of transporter activity after a bunch of mines detonated.

-- Joe Momma

Joe Momma wrote:
The quote also states that the mines can draw matter from the "zero-point vacuum domain," though that's also stated to be a slow process, so it may not affect your calculations a great deal.

Zero-point vacuum domain is a fancy way of saying that it sucks in any tiny amounts of space dust that comes its way and then converts it to antimatter...slowly...
With a million mines sucking in space dust, they may be able to create an extra few mines, but nothing that'll make a huge difference.

Praxis wrote:Zero-point vacuum domain is a fancy way of saying that it sucks in any tiny amounts of space dust that comes its way and then converts it to antimatter...slowly....

Is it? I got the horrible impression they were drawing particles from the "zero-point domain" just like the quantum torpedoes draw zero-point energy. Your suggestion makes more sense, but I'm sure it's treknobabbly enough.

With a million mines sucking in space dust, they may be able to create an extra few mines, but nothing that'll make a huge difference.

I think this is the case either way. I just wanted to bring it up so no one could later say you hadn't accounted for it.

-- Joe Momma

Well, I don't really know what they mean by zero-point, but vacuum domain is pretty clear. I could be wrong *shrug* but I think its what I said.

Wait, they can fucking replicate antimatter now?

Praxis wrote:If the entire shell of mines had enough extra mass for 2,500 extra mines, and each mine carries 1/65th of a mine's worth, that means that there were at least 1,625,000 mines.

2500 times 65 is 162 500, not 1 625 000.

Praxis wrote:Thats, well, insane. That must have been INSANELY expensive for the Federation to build, and as a result, not very practical for more than one or two minefields.

How so?
These mines were designed, built and deployed by the crew of a single space station, the project didn't appear to be all that costly to me.

Praxis wrote:Furthermore if the minefield has over 1.6 million mines in it, and only has enough to replicate 2,500, it only has enough extra materials to replicate 1/650th of its original size, or .15%.

Each mines has the building materials for a 1/65th of a mine, not 1/650th. That's 1.5%, not 0.15%.

Praxis wrote:Which means the self-replicating part doesn't really help it that much. Which also means that it WOULD be possible to detonate the minefield without it replicating itself.

The self replication ability was most likely deviced to keep the Dominion from clearing a path through the minefield, so that they would have to take down the entire field to get through, instead of just a "digging" a tunnel through.

Praxis wrote:A few other points:
1. How can the mines use transporters to beam the extra mass or antimatter between each other, when they are cloaked?
2. Isn't cloaking technology forbidden for the Federation by a treaty with the Romulans? Why can the mines cloak?
3. Can't the Dominion pick up the energy traces from the transporters and single out the location of the mines?

1. Don't really know, they might have transporters capable of beaming through the cloak.
2. IIRC the treaty with the Romulans prohibits Federation from installing cloaking devices on their ships, it might not apply to mines.
3. Appereantly they can't.

Praxis wrote:Either the TM is incorrect and just technobabbling, or that minefield is highly impractical. Or I miscalculated somewhere

A bit of both I think.

Praxis wrote:Newbie to the forum, but not newbie to ST vs SW
Check the sig

The tech manuals description sheds some light...but raises more questions.

If the entire shell of mines had enough extra mass for 2,500 extra mines, and each mine carries 1/65th of a mine's worth, that means that there were at least 1,625,000 mines. Thats, well, insane. That must have been INSANELY expensive for the Federation to build, and as a result, not very practical for more than one or two minefields.

Like Sir Sirius said it is only 162,500 mines and DS9 was able to deploy the minefield with one ship (the Defiant) and did it on their own, because when they evacuated DS9 they went to meet the nearest Starfleet Taskforce.

Furthermore if the minefield has over 1.6 million mines in it, and only has enough to replicate 2,500, it only has enough extra materials to replicate 1/650th of its original size, or .15%. Which means the self-replicating part doesn't really help it that much. Which also means that it WOULD be possible to detonate the minefield without it replicating itself.

See Sir Sirius post.

A few other points:
How can the mines use transporters to beam the extra mass or antimatter between each other, when they are cloaked?

we see transporters used in most instances we see a cloak used.

Isn't cloaking technology forbidden for the Federation by a treaty with the Romulans?

the Romulans gave Starfleet, more specifically Sisko and the Defiant a cloaking device for the Defiant. Yes, the mines are technically a violation of the Treaty of Algeron but I think Sisko and Starfleet didn't really care at that point and decided it was that or they let the Dominion reinforcements into the Alpha Quadrant.

Why can the mines cloak?

because they were fitted with a cloaking device...

Can't the Dominion pick up the energy traces from the transporters and single out the location of the mines?

As seen in the early episodes of the Sixth Season they can't really because of the cloaks and the fact that the mines do move as needed to fill in the gaps, until more mines are replicated. Even if they did plot the location of every single mine, as they destroyed them, the other mines would replace them just as fast so it would do no good. Watch the episode "Behind the Lines" and you will see that Damar figures out how to disable the minefield. It takes them agood while to do so because it is not brought down until two episodes later in "Sacrifice of Angels".

I believe that Alyeska was correct in that the mines also use the battle debris to make more mines. As for the arguement about the debris not containing 100% of the materials needed, well so what if it does not. The mines do carry some of the things needed. Plus we are talking about ship debris and such, since pretty much every single piece of the mines decribed sounds like it would be found on a ship, I would think it would not be hard to find the needed materials. Then there is the fact we are talking about replicators which can rearrange most(if not all in this case we aren't replicating serums) matter into any form needed. So it is very likely this is how it works. If someone has the 5th season on DVD and can watch the last episode "Call to Arms" they can tell us if it(how the mines work) is explained better.

If the mines collected battlefield debris, they would not waste their time with the zero point whatever. Collecting debris would be vastly more profitable to the point where the other particle collection system would be abandoned. The fact that it wasn't, and that particle collection is conducted, suggests that battlefield debris is not collected.

Howedar wrote:If the mines collected battlefield debris, they would not waste their time with the zero point whatever. Collecting debris would be vastly more profitable to the point where the other particle collection system would be abandoned. The fact that it wasn't, and that particle collection is conducted, suggests that battlefield debris is not collected.

It could be that they are calling the battle field debris the zero point thingy, it would not be the first time Trek used technobabble instead of plain english. Hell look at what 90% of what Data says is easily along the exact same lines as I am speaking.

Death from the Sea wrote: Like Sir Sirius said it is only 162,500 mines and DS9 was able to deploy the minefield with one ship (the Defiant) and did it on their own, because when they evacuated DS9 they went to meet the nearest Starfleet Taskforce.

Sorry bout that, been sick for a while and it was late at night when i did that. I must have added an extra zero on the calculator somewhere, bumping the calculations up, and then when i worked backwards again it spat out 1/650 because of that extra zero.

we see transporters used in most instances we see a cloak used.

Excepting Star Trek 4: The Voyage Home, I can't remember ever seeing a cloaked ship use transporters. In fact, in "Trials and Tribbleations", in DS9, where they accidently went back in time to the TOS episode "The Trouble with Tribbles", they had to decloak to transport people to a space station, despite the fact that they really didn't want to be noticed and wouldn't have decloaked if they hadn't needed to. I think I've seen other examples of this, but I can't remember them right now. As a side note, ALL the games (I know, non-canon) require you to decloak to use transporters.

the Romulans gave Starfleet, more specifically Sisko and the Defiant a cloaking device for the Defiant. Yes, the mines are technically a violation of the Treaty of Algeron but I think Sisko and Starfleet didn't really care at that point and decided it was that or they let the Dominion reinforcements into the Alpha Quadrant.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but didn't the treaty allow one starfleet ship to have a cloaking device?

because they were fitted with a cloaking device...

I meant, "Why can they cloak despite the fact that its against the romulan treaty, and the romulans would have declared war on them, AND the Federation has never been able to develop cloaking technology so they would never have been able to build 162,500 cloaking devices in such a short time?"

As seen in the early episodes of the Sixth Season they can't really because of the cloaks and the fact that the mines do move as needed to fill in the gaps, until more mines are replicated. Even if they did plot the location of every single mine, as they destroyed them, the other mines would replace them just as fast so it would do no good. Watch the episode "Behind the Lines" and you will see that Damar figures out how to disable the minefield. It takes them agood while to do so because it is not brought down until two episodes later in "Sacrifice of Angels".

But think about it. Damar figures out how to do it by using a graviton beam to flush out the cloak (interestingly enough, quite similar to the Empire's CGT array), then nukes them all in one phaser shot.

However, they SHOULD have been able to detect the transporter signature. The Enterprise could always detect if an enemy ship beamed something down to a planet.

Also if the minefield can only replicate 1.5% of its original size, then the replicator function is essentially useless. What the Cardassians SHOULD have done was map out where stuff was being transported, and started nuking them with very low power phaser blasts. All they have to do is crack the shell of the mine and it'll likely self destruct, especially considering that it has no shields and light hull.

So, 162,500 phaser shots, and all the original mines will be gone, leaving LESS than 2,500 mines (I say less because each time they destroy a mine, they'll destroy some of the onboard antimatter or extra mass that would have been used to replicate another one).

We saw the Enterprise-D take out 13 or so little, almost unshielded fighters in a couple seconds in one episode- since DS9 is considerably more advanced, it should only take a few days to take out all the mines.

I believe that Alyeska was correct in that the mines also use the battle debris to make more mines. As for the arguement about the debris not containing 100% of the materials needed, well so what if it does not. The mines do carry some of the things needed. Plus we are talking about ship debris and such, since pretty much every single piece of the mines decribed sounds like it would be found on a ship, I would think it would not be hard to find the needed materials. Then there is the fact we are talking about replicators which can rearrange most(if not all in this case we aren't replicating serums) matter into any form needed. So it is very likely this is how it works. If someone has the 5th season on DVD and can watch the last episode "Call to Arms" they can tell us if it(how the mines work) is explained better.

It's very possible, but tell me, how would it be collected? A large peice of battle debris smacking into a mine would probably destroy it, and transporters would be detected. Plus, where would all this extra mass be stored? Inside the tiny mines?

Praxis wrote:

the Romulans gave Starfleet, more specifically Sisko and the Defiant a cloaking device for the Defiant. Yes, the mines are technically a violation of the Treaty of Algeron but I think Sisko and Starfleet didn't really care at that point and decided it was that or they let the Dominion reinforcements into the Alpha Quadrant.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but didn't the treaty allow one starfleet ship to have a cloaking device?

The treaty technically doesn't allow the federation to use any cloaks at all or even phase cloaks. The Defiant had a cloaking device cos they promsied to only use in the gamma quadrent and share all infomation on the dominion with the romulans. The mine's cloaks were a complete violation i suppose but the fed didn't care as long as they kept the domionon out.

Death from the Sea wrote:

Howedar wrote:If the mines collected battlefield debris, they would not waste their time with the zero point whatever. Collecting debris would be vastly more profitable to the point where the other particle collection system would be abandoned. The fact that it wasn't, and that particle collection is conducted, suggests that battlefield debris is not collected.

It could be that they are calling the battle field debris the zero point thingy, it would not be the first time Trek used technobabble instead of plain english. Hell look at what 90% of what Data says is easily along the exact same lines as I am speaking.

Only if you're willing to say that all battlefield debris is small enough to be worthy of the name "particle".

I'm not willing to do that.

As I understand it, the mines can draw materiel stock from primarily matter (as in whatever collides with the mine field), energy, and finally the zero point a.k.a vaccuum energy. From non-canon sources, the energy originates with an eleven dimensional manifold (think superstring theory). The matter/energy/zero point is stored as replicated antimatter.
Is antimatter replicatable? Maybe, maybe not.

The cloaking devises are NOT shields, so sensors and transporters work.
(Wasn't Scotty able to beam Dr. Jillian Anderson onboard the cloaked BoP during ST:The Voyage Home?)

Each mine is linked to its neighbor: the entire field is a transporter lattice.

Praxis wrote:Excepting Star Trek 4: The Voyage Home, I can't remember ever seeing a cloaked ship use transporters. In fact, in "Trials and Tribbleations", in DS9, where they accidently went back in time to the TOS episode "The Trouble with Tribbles", they had to decloak to transport people to a space station, despite the fact that they really didn't want to be noticed and wouldn't have decloaked if they hadn't needed to. I think I've seen other examples of this, but I can't remember them right now. As a side note, ALL the games (I know, non-canon) require you to decloak to use transporters.

It might depend on the type of cloaking device used, some allow beaming through them some don't. In any case this is a meaningless point to make, the mines were able to beam stuff through their shields.

Praxis wrote:Maybe I'm wrong here, but didn't the treaty allow one starfleet ship to have a cloaking device?

IIRC the treaty with the Romulans prohibits Federation from installing cloaking devices on their ships, it might not apply to mines.

Praxis wrote:I meant, "Why can they cloak despite the fact that its against the romulan treaty, and the romulans would have declared war on them, AND the Federation has never been able to develop cloaking technology so they would never have been able to build 162,500 cloaking devices in such a short time?"

Prevented by a treaty from using cloaking devices != unable to built them. The Feddies have had access to a cloaking device the TOS era and there was one mounted on the Defiant for years, is it really that hard to belief that they reverse engineered the technology at some point?

Praxis wrote:However, they SHOULD have been able to detect the transporter signature. The Enterprise could always detect if an enemy ship beamed something down to a planet.

Obviously they couldn't detect the transporter signature. Why? Don't really know, but perhaps the mines were so close to each other that they were able to cloak the transporter signature as well. Who knows.

Praxis wrote:Also if the minefield can only replicate 1.5% of its original size, then the replicator function is essentially useless.

As I said previously the replication ability was most likely deviced to keep the Dominion from clearing a path through the mine field.

Praxis wrote:What the Cardassians SHOULD have done was map out where stuff was being transported...
<snipped to save space>
...it should only take a few days to take out all the mines.

True, assuming that the Dominion had been able to detect transporter signatures from the mines, which they weren't.

BTW I doubt that the DS9/Terok Nor, an old Cardassian mining station, is more advanced then a GCS. Larger and better armed isn't quite the same as more advanced.

Enola Straight wrote:As I understand it, the mines can draw materiel stock from primarily matter (as in whatever collides with the mine field), energy, and finally the zero point a.k.a vaccuum energy. From non-canon sources, the energy originates with an eleven dimensional manifold (think superstring theory). The matter/energy/zero point is stored as replicated antimatter.

In the case of drawing material from debris, the mines would only be able to suck in the small debris, such as dust and small peices. Large debris would smash the mines and cause them to blow up.

Is antimatter replicatable? Maybe, maybe not.

The cloaking devises are NOT shields, so sensors and transporters work.
(Wasn't Scotty able to beam Dr. Jillian Anderson onboard the cloaked BoP during ST:The Voyage Home?)

Each mine is linked to its neighbor: the entire field is a transporter lattice.

Yes...but then, in Trials and Tribbleations (a DS9 episode), the Defiant had to decloak for a brief moment to beam people to a station. They only remained undetected because they had been transported back in time and they timed the decloaking to slip between the original Enterprise's sensor waves.

You'll notice that the movies are often rather...off...compared to the series. For example, Star Trek V, the Enterprise travels to the center of the galaxy on warp drive.

It depends which you trust more IN RELATION to the minefield...an old TOS trek movie, or an episode in the same SERIES that the cloaked minefield was in.

Crazedwraith wrote: The treaty technically doesn't allow the federation to use any cloaks at all or even phase cloaks. The Defiant had a cloaking device cos they promsied to only use in the gamma quadrent and share all infomation on the dominion with the romulans. The mine's cloaks were a complete violation i suppose but the fed didn't care as long as they kept the domionon out.

Interesting, considering that at the time the Federation was TRYING to convince the Romulans to join their side...yep, thats the smart thing to do to get someone to join you, violate your treaty with them twice in a row (since the Defiant used the cloak in the Alpha Quadrant too)...

Sir Sirius wrote: It might depend on the type of cloaking device used, some allow beaming through them some don't. In any case this is a meaningless point to make, the mines were able to beam stuff through their shields.

The mines couldn't have had shields- they were cloaked. No shields when you're cloaked, remember?

It seems TOS Klingon cloaks did allow beaming through shields- but Federation cloaks don't. See "Trials and Tribbleations".

Prevented by a treaty from using cloaking devices != unable to built them. The Feddies have had access to a cloaking device the TOS era and there was one mounted on the Defiant for years, is it really that hard to belief that they reverse engineered the technology at some point?

Weren't they prohibited from developing cloaking technology, not just using it?

Though you could be right on this one.

Obviously they couldn't detect the transporter signature. Why? Don't really know, but perhaps the mines were so close to each other that they were able to cloak the transporter signature as well. Who knows.

If they were that close, their explosions would nuke the ones next to them...and the ones next to them...and the ones next to them...

Come to think about it, thats exactly what happened after the cloaks and replication units were disabled. How come the other mine detonations never set off a chain reaction like the ones seen in "Sacrifice of Angels"?

As I said previously the replication ability was most likely deviced to keep the Dominion from clearing a path through the mine field.

But if it can replicate only 1.5% of its original mass, all the Dominion had to do was destroy 1.5% of the mines before there wasn't enough antimatter left for replacements and then they would start thinning out. What I meant was, if it can only replicate such a tiny portion of its original mass, what real use is the replication ability?

True, assuming that the Dominion had been able to detect transporter signatures from the mines, which they weren't.

BTW I doubt that the DS9/Terok Nor, an old Cardassian mining station, is more advanced then a GCS. Larger and better armed isn't quite the same as more advanced.

So...you think that DS9, a station with numerous Federation upgrades, AND the entire combined Dominion and Cardassian fleet we saw in "Sacrifice of Angels" (1200 ships) had inferior sensors to a single Galaxy-class starship, despite the fact that the Dominion had been whooping the Federations rear end every step of the way up till that point?





Theres a few reasons I think the tech manual is wrong on this. How could a single ship, the Defiant, lay 162,500 mines? How could a single space station, a refitted Cardassian station, have built that many mines so quickly? Why weren't transporter signatures picked up in between the mines?

Additionally, some quotes from the TM, as stated in Patrick Degan's earlier post:

"The explosive system consists of a stripped-down standard photon torpedo warhead and includes only the central combiner tank into which the cryogenic deuterium and antideuterium have been premixed, but kept separated by a long-term toroidal magnetic field driver. The contact and proximity sensors would command the driver to collapse the field, allowing the matter and antimatter to detonate."
"Station-keeping thrusters were cannibalized from a class-1 instrumented probe and connected to a single cold-gas nitrogen pressure tank. Modulation of the warhead magnetic field was also used to keep the mines aligned within a four-frequency icosahedron geodesic sphere. A neutrino source counter was incorporated into the sensor package to keep the mines at a uniform distance from the wormhole opening."

So, the mines were the most expensive parts of a photon torpedo, using magnetic fields to seperate the matter and antimatter, plus a replicator, plus station keeping structures, plus a cold-gas nitrogen pressure tank, plus something to modulate the warhead magnetic field, a neutrino source counter, plus contact proximity sensors.

I think it'd be safe to say that these mines are noticeably more expensive than torpeodes.
So how could they manufacture so many, so quickly? Even their replicators require either lots of excess matter, or LOTS of energy to convert to matter.

How could the Federation afford all of this?