Ted C wrote:Robert Walper wrote:Umm...not necessarily. In the Aplpha quadrant, and gamma quadrant, warp seems to be the norm.
It seems to be the norm throughout the galaxy. Even races with access to other propulsion technologies have warp drives. The
Borg were using warp drive in "Q Who" and "Best of Both Worlds".
Agreed. I would merely argue the Borg can use Transwarp quite easily if required, and Transwarp is bloodly fast by calcs I've determined.
Robert Walper wrote:But in the Delta, other forms of FTL travel seem to be common as well. Transwarp, slipstream, catapult systems, etc.
As far as I know, there are
two civilizations
in the galaxy that have transwarp drive: the Borg and the Voth.
That we know of for certain I would argue. Other races not seen may very well have Transwarp or other faster FTL drive systems in comparison to warp. But your overall point stands.
There was apparently only one civilization that had slipstream, and that civilization was assimilated (meanting there's still only one civilization, the Borg, with that technology, and they don't seem to use it).
Given that Slipstream FTL factors are inferior to Transwarp ones, this is hardly surprising. Slipstream is visually identical to Transwarp, but Transwarp examples are vastly superior.
Is there evidence of more than one civilization with "catapult" technology?
My bad. So far as I know, only one individual created such a catapult, and once used, it was discarded by both him and Voyager, since using it again was obviously not possible.
Other propulsion technologies? Unique propulsion systems are scattered around the galaxy, but warp drive is everywhere.
Point conceeded.
Robert Walper wrote: Your overall point would stand though, but it seems the Borg in the Star Trek galaxy have the best FTL systems known to any conventional power.
The Borg do seem to have assimilated an assortment of
improvements on warp technology, but there propulsion apparently still uses the same basic concept.
Agreed. I'd point out nothing more than that when crusing at warp, they use very high factors, and with apparent ease.
Robert Walper wrote: Transwarp coils can allow spacecraft to travel 200 lightyears in under ten seconds, conduits can fling a ship across 65 lightyears in under seven seconds, Borg transwarp hubs can fling vessels across the galaxy in minutes. It would seem the Borg have the best FTL of all observed races in Trek(conventional ones I mean).
Better performance, yes. Different technological base, no. Remember, the Federation knew the
theory behind transwarp in Kirk's time, they just couldn't get it to work (despite building a large prototype vessel, the Excelsior).
It was my impression that that specific "Transwarp" system was merely a failed attempt to make a stardrive capable of jumping instanteously to any warp factor rather than having to work through the entire chain of warp 1,2,3, etc.
Additonally, simply terming the drive system Transwarp does not necessarily imply Transwarp in any form the Borg or Voth have used it, or future Federation ships have experienced it. Don't forget, in the Pilot episode of TOS, they literately stated their drive system as "Hyperdrive", and obivously that term is rather subjective.
Robert Walper wrote:Michael Wong has made the point that Trek shielding seems to suffer badly from over specification. Known types of threats are shielded against, but unknown ones can pass right through them. In this light, Borg shielding would also seem to be the best solution utilizing the Trek technology basis. They adapt their shielding on the fly to whatever threat is presented.
Actually, you've just described a characteristic that helps show that Borg shielding uses the same basic shield technology. Borg shields need to be adjusted to deal with new threats, just like the shields the Federation uses. The Borg are just able to make that adjustment faster.
Much faster I'd argue.
Once again, we see an improvement on the same technological base.
Agreed.
Robert Walper wrote: This has drawbacks as well, but is better than the pathetic examples of Sona shielding against chemical explosions, etc. Given Borg hulls can take incredible poundings by entire fleets of Federation ships, they seem to have been prepared for damage to their hulls so they have time to adapt to new types of weapons or other inflicted damage.
The Borg do build huge ships with lots of redundancy, which helps them survive attack until their shields adapt, but that doesn't show a different technological base.
Conceded, although I don't think that was what I was attempting to imply. Just more rambling about Borg capabilities on my part.
It is my opinion that the Borg could have assimilated Data if they chose to do so, however their assimilation speed would have been inadaquate against his capability to purge any valueable data from his own storage devices.
Unfortunately, I don't think there's any evidence to support your interpretation. In "Scorpion", we saw that Voyager had to make just such a threat to keep the Borg from assimilating them: if the Borg attempted to assimilate Voyager, the Holodoc would delete the data they needed to fight S8472.
You're just provided the evidence that a threat of assimilation can be delayed or prevented by threatening to destroy what it is the Borg are after, which is my point about Data.
Data did not need to make any such ultimatum in First Contact; he was confident that the Borg couldn't assimilate him, and the Borg made no effort to contradict him.
His confidence is irrelevent. The Borg
were assimilating him, and with apparent ease(don't forget they did have limited resources on hand). They grafted organic components onto his body. Being a machine with organic components made him a cyborg, which is what the Borg are. They were assimilating him, and it was beyond his comprehension on how they were doing it. I've merely stated the theory(which I think has some definite merit) as to why assimilating information from his brain would be next to impossible. This is due to the limitation on Borg assimilation
speed, not
capability.
This isn't really all that surprising; Data's positronic brain is apparently one of the few truly unique technologies developed by humans. That Paxons were just as stumped by Data's positronic brain as the Borg (ref. TNG "Clues").
There's no evidence in my opinion that would imply the Borg were "stumped" by Data's positronic brain. The Borg method of assimilation just simply wouldn't be fast enough to take him over without him having the time to purge valueable data from his mind. Frankly, the Borg being aware of this possiblity isn't improbable in my opinion. My assertion is that Data was being physically assimilated quite clearly, only his individuality remained intact, and for reasons that I have stipulated which make alot of sense to me.
Umm...Species 8472 actually can be assimilated by Borg technology, the Doctor did it when they found the Species 8472 outpost studying Earth's Starfleet command.
True, but it apparently never has difficulty assimilating the humanoid species common to our galaxy.
That we know of, agreed.
S8472 was alien enough to completely stump the Borg, even though their nanoprobes only needed minor reprogramming to be effective.
Due to lack of information, material to work with and time to utilize any such information in my opinion.
Robert Walper wrote:I ask you this, at what point did the Borg have the opportunity to study Species 8472 genetic material?
The Borg knew
at least enough about S8472 to decide they
wanted to assimilate them for their genetic material.
Seven of Nine stated the Borg found Species 8472 to be a major threat, and their solution was to "destroy them first!". The Borg's priority of
assimilating Species 8472 didn't seem that high, if existent at all. Seven of Nine stated in STVOY "Dark Frontier" the Borg destroy threats, they don't assimilate them unless targetted for such a purpose.
This suggests that they must have had a tissue sample at least long enough to decide the aliens were worth assimilating.
See above.
It's not like S8472 had inorganic technology to attract the Collective's attention.
Agreed. The Borg do assimilate species purely for biological gain, however, evidence suggests the Borg had very little, if any Species 8472 genetic material to work with. Evidence also suggests Species 8472 was actively preventing the Borg from gaining any such advantage as well.
Robert Walper wrote:Borg cubes were slaughtered by the hundreds, planets fragmented by Species 8472 bioships. Even Borg drones on derelict pieces of Borg craft were systematically hunted down and torn apart by Species 8472 organisms.
Nonetheless, those drones would
still be in contact with the Collective until they were destroyed.
Not if the Borg Vinculum and Central plexus are destroyed, and given the erratic activity witnessed, this would seem to be the case(drones can function while seperated from the hive mind, but quite porrly). Given the Borg ships were blown into debris fields, this isn't exactly unlikely either. Additionally, Seven of Nine stated in STVOY "Prey" that Species 8472, when boarding a vessel, seeks the most efficent method of disrupting and/or destroying said boarded vessel. Destroying the technology that maintains a link to the hive mind would be a high priority goal in such attacks, particularily if Species 8472 is intent on preventing any type of analysis on the Borg's part.
Evidently they lack the tools to analyze a tissue sample in the time it takes a single S8472 "soldier" to wander through a damaged cube and kill every drone on board.
Given their vessels are blown into debris fields, with the link to the Hive mind disrupted or destroyed altogether, I hardly find this surprising.
I daresay any sci-fi power would find it extremely difficult to perform their best scientific analysis when your ship is blown into fragments with boarding enemies tearing through your remaining hull sections and troops like butter.
I would say any species that has blood cells identifiable to Borg nanoprobes would be vulnerable.
OK, that's arguable. Even S8472 is vaguely humanoid. It would be interesting to see a Tholian drone, or a drone of
any species that isn't obviously humanoid, to verify that Borg assimilation technology works on truly different life forms.
Given the Doctor specifically stated and showed evidence that Borg nanoprobes attack blood cells, blood cells identifiable to the nanoprobes should be attacked in such a manner, unless prevented by some means(like a ultra effective immune system).
Obviously Trek suffers from a galactic wide common technological basis, but indications are the Borg are obviously at the top of this food chain("omnipotent" and non-conventional species aside), with the greatest FTL speeds, largests numbers, firepower, etc.
The problem, Rob, is that being at the "top of the technological food chain" in Trek doesn't require being able to assimilate really alien species or technologies.
Possibly, but it should be noted that I think the two examples you have provided(Data the andriod and Species 8472) aren't effective arguements against Borg assimilation. Both examples either destroy the Borg capability to assimilate before it's implemented, or destroy what the Borg are after before they can assimilate it.
They've got the best versions of all the basic technologies in the galaxy, but they don't really have the ability to handle anything outside that basic infrastructure.
Then frankly they would be completely unable to excerise their primary goal, which is "add" biological and technology distinctiveness to their Collective. If they are adding anything, it would have to be outside their technological and biological basis to have any value by that criteria.
Now, if they can assimilate a civilization that possesses a unique technology, then the technology can become part of the Borg "base", but that doesn't happen very often.
Apparently you submit it has happened, therefore I would think you've invalidated your own point.
They don't even use the one technology (slipstream) that they acquired that way.
It's visually indentical to Transwarp anyhow, and inferior to boot.
Robert Walper wrote:PS: I need to make my website dammnit! Hope to have your input on it too Ted.
Always happy to help. You have the marvelous trait of actually
listening to people's arguments, which is all too rare among debaters these days.
I should include that in my sig. Probably shock some here to see someone say that.
You can take an awful lot of convincing
, but you're not inflexible.
Well, persistence as you said, is a quality I share with the Borg. One must admit, your own persistence paid off in convincing me about the Borg KE shielding arguement.
PS: Sorry about the long delay in reponse Ted, I just finished moving in, and my cable just got hooked up. My future responses should be much more prompt now, with e-mail corrospondense being possible again.
Because I'm an idiot who didn't read your post accurately. Sorry. 