How does Betazoid empathy work?

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2003-11-15 01:03am

Why is it Troi is able to read the emotions of even energy beings (remember that vortex like creature in time squared?) and machines with emotions (like Data in descent) but not Changelings (luwoxana Troi said she wasn't able to read Odo) and Ferengi. It was once theorized by data that they couldn't read Ferengi because of thier unusual brains, and probably Odo because he doesn't have any organs, but what about data and his positronic brain, or the energy vortex creature?

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2003-11-15 01:27am

The simplest and most inelegant explanation is poor and inconsistent writing.

However, if I were to take a wild stab at it, I'd say it isn't so much to do with biology than it does with emotional defences.

Consider:

Data gets his emotion chip, unlike us he hasn't had the benefit of growing accoustomed to feelings and is more vulnerable to letting his emotions get the better of him. Therefore, Troi is able to pick up the transmissions. Either that, or she just 'fakes' it - after all, if Data has a sneer on his face its not like he's thinking sunshine and lollipops.

The Energy Vortex/Ghost entities probably have similiar problems guarding their own emotions. Aren't these aliens mostly solitary, communities-of-one entities? If so, then presumably their emotions would be so wild and raw that any munchkin can pick up on the signals.

Odo guards his emotions like a man who values control. Its more likely he can't be read because he doesn't want to be read, and can clear his mind of thought. Hell, he can shapeshift into a stone - it's not like rocks have any feelings.

Ferengi have a vested interest in being inscrutable, it makes dealmaking more advantageous for them. If the other guy can't discern his motives, then the Ferengi can push any deal he wants (within reason). Therefore, it is also possible that they have mental conditioning, or some form of cybernetic device that emits telepathic 'white noise' implanted in their cerebellum.

Note: the above is speculation. The reasons given are that Ferengi have a weird brain structure which somehow prevents them from being scanned, while Odo is just so weird no one can read him. This doesn't explain how an android can be read, however, nor an incorporeal entity.

TrekWarsie · Post by **TrekWarsie** » 2003-11-16 07:58pm

I heard once that Betazoids have some chemical in their genetic makeup that allows them to have their empathic and telepathic caoabilities. I don't know where I heard it, but I do believe that it was in a TNG episode.

Agent R · Post by **Agent R** » 2003-11-16 10:45pm

TrekWarsie wrote:I heard once that Betazoids have some chemical in their genetic makeup that allows them to have their empathic and telepathic caoabilities. I don't know where I heard it, but I do believe that it was in a TNG episode.

The chemical is called "psilosynine", a neurotransmitter found in Betazoid brains.

Betazoids cannot read the minds of Ferengi, Breen, and Dopterians because those races have a "four-lobed" brain construction.

Jawawithagun · Post by **Jawawithagun** » 2003-11-17 05:08am

Mental discipline of Odo and the Ferengi? I mean, most of what she sensed could be done faster and ain more detail by a psychologist.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2003-11-17 08:17am

Jawawithagun wrote:Mental discipline of Odo and the Ferengi? I mean, most of what she sensed could be done faster and ain more detail by a psychologist.

I just wrote that because I figured it was more plausible than saying Betazoids could scan Androids with an artificial brain for emotion as well as aliens without any bodies (which means no brains) but couldn't scan Ferengi or Odo due to their biology. Besides, I can see the Ferengi actually developing Telepath-proof implants and SAYING "It's because we have an extra lobe or two in our brains."

Jawawithagun · Post by **Jawawithagun** » 2003-11-17 08:23am

Stofsk wrote:
Jawawithagun wrote:Mental discipline of Odo and the Ferengi? I mean, most of what she sensed could be done faster and ain more detail by a psychologist.
I just wrote that because I figured it was more plausible than saying Betazoids could scan Androids with an artificial brain for emotion as well as aliens without any bodies (which means no brains) but couldn't scan Ferengi or Odo due to their biology. Besides, I can see the Ferengi actually developing Telepath-proof implants and SAYING "It's because we have an extra lobe or two in our brains."

"Well, we need to protect our trade secrets against these Feddie mind spies!"

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2003-11-17 07:49pm

Stofsk wrote:
Jawawithagun wrote:Mental discipline of Odo and the Ferengi? I mean, most of what she sensed could be done faster and ain more detail by a psychologist.
I just wrote that because I figured it was more plausible than saying Betazoids could scan Androids with an artificial brain for emotion as well as aliens without any bodies (which means no brains) but couldn't scan Ferengi or Odo due to their biology. Besides, I can see the Ferengi actually developing Telepath-proof implants and SAYING "It's because we have an extra lobe or two in our brains."

AFAIK betazoids can only have empathy (they receive the emotions of someone as if they were thier own) and as far as telepathy, I don't think they can read minds, just send telepathic messages to each other or members of other telepathic species.

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2003-11-17 07:53pm

Agent R wrote:
TrekWarsie wrote:I heard once that Betazoids have some chemical in their genetic makeup that allows them to have their empathic and telepathic caoabilities. I don't know where I heard it, but I do believe that it was in a TNG episode.
The chemical is called "psilosynine", a neurotransmitter found in Betazoid brains.

Betazoids cannot read the minds of Ferengi, Breen, and Dopterians because those races have a "four-lobed" brain construction.

but Troi WAS able to read the emotions of the vortex energy creature in time squared (which she described as not emotion more like instinct) and Nagilum in Where silence has lease (which she described as "an intelligence so vast in eluded me")

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-11-17 08:37pm

Shrykull wrote:AFAIK betazoids can only have empathy (they receive the emotions of someone as if they were thier own) and as far as telepathy, I don't think they can read minds, just send telepathic messages to each other or members of other telepathic species.

Troi's mother can telepathically read and send to Picard.

And Troi could sense the emotions of the Ferengi captain in "The Price".

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2003-11-17 09:57pm

Stofsk wrote:Ferengi have a vested interest in being inscrutable, it makes dealmaking more advantageous for them. If the other guy can't discern his motives, then the Ferengi can push any deal he wants (within reason). Therefore, it is also possible that they have mental conditioning, or some form of cybernetic device that emits telepathic 'white noise' implanted in their cerebellum.

I recall in one episode of DS9 it's revealed that there's another race that Betazoids can't read because they're a "close relative" of the Ferengi. Odo used this information (and only this information) to arrest a member of that species as a thief (nice to see that Starfleet security officers can make arrests based on race and race alone. I'd have a problem with this except for the fact that they're the Federation and the Federation Can Do No Wrong.)

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2003-11-18 08:44pm

Drooling Iguana wrote:
Stofsk wrote:Ferengi have a vested interest in being inscrutable, it makes dealmaking more advantageous for them. If the other guy can't discern his motives, then the Ferengi can push any deal he wants (within reason). Therefore, it is also possible that they have mental conditioning, or some form of cybernetic device that emits telepathic 'white noise' implanted in their cerebellum.
I recall in one episode of DS9 it's revealed that there's another race that Betazoids can't read because they're a "close relative" of the Ferengi. Odo used this information (and only this information) to arrest a member of that species as a thief (nice to see that Starfleet security officers can make arrests based on race and race alone. I'd have a problem with this except for the fact that they're the Federation and the Federation Can Do No Wrong.)

Odo's not in starfleet, he's in the bajoran militia, just he just works for the federation who run the station, the form he takes has the appearance of a bajoran uniform.

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2003-11-18 08:45pm

Troi's mother can telepathically read and send to Picard

Maybe read, but not send. There was an episode where there was this human who's maternal grandmother was born on betazed, they said humans aren't telepathic.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2003-11-18 10:53pm

Shrykull wrote:
Drooling Iguana wrote:I recall in one episode of DS9 it's revealed that there's another race that Betazoids can't read because they're a "close relative" of the Ferengi. Odo used this information (and only this information) to arrest a member of that species as a thief (nice to see that Starfleet security officers can make arrests based on race and race alone. I'd have a problem with this except for the fact that they're the Federation and the Federation Can Do No Wrong.)
Odo's not in starfleet, he's in the bajoran militia, just he just works for the federation who run the station, the form he takes has the appearance of a bajoran uniform.

Remember that prior to working for Starfleet and Ben Sisko, Odo worked for the Cardassian Union and Gul Dukat. Things were run a little differently back then...

Besides, Odo is one of the Good Guys, and Good Guys Can Do No Wrong As Well.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-11-19 01:35am

Shrykull wrote:
Troi's mother can telepathically read and send to Picard
Maybe read, but not send. There was an episode where there was this human who's maternal grandmother was born on betazed, they said humans aren't telepathic.

No, she can send to Picard. I think it was the episode where she was supposed to get married, near the end.

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-11-19 01:46am

No, Troi picked up on that and whispered to Picard to make him act like a jealous lover which he very reluctantly did.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2003-11-19 02:29am

Troi is half Human meaning that she has very limited telepathic abilities (though her empathic half is apparently quite highly rated as Betazoids rate their psi abilities). She can send but only in a limited way to close relations and/or people she has come close to. Like Riker, they got inside each others heads so much that she can send to him, like in 'Encounter at Farpoint'.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2003-11-19 12:17pm

there's been several episodes where troi's mother scanned the minds of various humanoids. one in particular was with those ambassadors that looked like fish. she was able to pick up their intentions with relative ease. as far as the not being able to penetrate certain minds . . .my own theory is it might have something to do to the fact that their brain's EM makeup is slightly different from the way most humanoids' brains functions. after all, the brain is little more than an organic circuit chip, and relies upon electrical impulses to make the body work.

the ferengi brain, likely has some weird magnetic fluctuation or something similar that keeps betazeds from scanning it. either that or it lacks certain chemical/electrical makeups that other races have which allow their minds to be scanned.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-11-19 02:45pm

Drooling Iguana wrote:Odo used this information (and only this information) to arrest a member of that species as a thief

You misrepresent the incident, Troi couldn't sense any guilt, Odo looks around the room spots somebody she wouldn't be able to scan and that guy tries to bolt and when searched is found to have stolen goods on him, hardly an arrest based only on race.

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2003-11-19 09:30pm

Uraniun235 wrote:
Shrykull wrote:
Troi's mother can telepathically read and send to Picard
Maybe read, but not send. There was an episode where there was this human who's maternal grandmother was born on betazed, they said humans aren't telepathic.
No, she can send to Picard. I think it was the episode where she was supposed to get married, near the end.

And in another episode with that guy she wants to stop from committing suicide, she tells Deanna that she tried telepathy on him and he was the wrong species, I don't remember the exact quote from the episode, but they mentioned he was telepathic and they said "He's human" implying he isn't telepathic

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2003-11-19 09:36pm

Chris OFarrell wrote:Troi is half Human meaning that she has very limited telepathic abilities (though her empathic half is apparently quite highly rated as Betazoids rate their psi abilities). She can send but only in a limited way to close relations and/or people she has come close to. Like Riker, they got inside each others heads so much that she can send to him, like in 'Encounter at Farpoint'.

I Encounter at Farpoint she tells the guy she can only sense strong emotions, but in the episode where she temporarily loses her empathic abilities, she goes nuts because she doesn't have it like someone going blind which is a sense you are always using unless your eyes are closed or you are asleep.