Page 1 of 1

Klingon super strength myth or fact?

Posted: 2003-10-29 01:54am
by Stravo
After watching DS9 Season 4 and 5 and anxiously waiting for Season 6 (Nov. 4) I remember certain discussions here about Klingon prowess in battle and the oft claimed but never proven stipulation that Klingons were stronger than humans.

For:

Worf complains to Jadzia at one point about having to live his life always concerned and holding back unless he hurt the far more fragile humans and recounts a story where as a teen he headbutts another teenage human and shatters his neck.

The parasite aliens in Conspiracy thought it a feat of strength to go up against Worf. (and handed him his ass)

Jem'Hadar consider Klingons more on their par in terms of strength and fighting prowess (though many of these 'super' soldiers get their asses handed to them by humans and Kira Noris.)


Against:

Klingons routinely man handled by Tailors (Garak) Cardasians (Dukat) Humans (various starfleet officers, an older slower James Kirk in St III hands Kruge his ass) and most telling of all a pregnant Kira Noris. There is also evidence of Ferengi being able to batleth fight with proud Klingon warriors

We never see Klingons actually do any real heavy lifting in the series, unlike Vulcans who are pegged at 5 times human strength and have displayed such abilites consistently throughout Trek but most especially in TOS.


Where do you fall iin this debate and bring some evidence with you (particulalry in the FOR side if you have any because I am rapidly drawing blanks there.) And can a case be made that Kira is merely a super strong Bajoran :lol:

Posted: 2003-10-29 01:56am
by Darth Wong
There is no real evidence for Klingon superhuman strength whatsoever. Worf is stronger than the average human, but a human of his size and build would also be stronger than the average human.

Posted: 2003-10-29 03:25am
by Knife
Species specific? Klingons (TNG) have the head ridge that implies heavy bone structure on their heads that would inable a bad ass head but. A warrior type culture that would imply a aggressive attitude that would contrast to the the Feddie's touchy touchy socilist type culture.











ultimately, bad writting.

Posted: 2003-10-29 05:48am
by Superman
Stravo, one comment: You said that Vulcans have consistently demonstrated this super strength... Well, all of them except for Tuvok. Tuvok seemed to have broken the super strength idea for Vulcans. Chalk it up to another Voyager fuck up...

Posted: 2003-10-29 06:42am
by Jawawithagun
Well, Tuvok obviously is of the spineless nerd variety.

Posted: 2003-10-29 09:56am
by Patrick Degan
Klingon super strength? Let's see... Worf got beaten up by Ferengi.


MYTH

Re: Klingon super strength myth or fact?

Posted: 2003-10-29 10:58am
by Death from the Sea
Stravo wrote:The parasite aliens in Conspiracy thought it a feat of strength to go up against Worf. (and handed him his ass)
IIRC those aliens made Troi super strong, so Worf being able to go toe to toe with them is a good show of strength.
Jem'Hadar consider Klingons more on their par in terms of strength and fighting prowess (though many of these 'super' soldiers get their asses handed to them by humans and Kira Noris.)
Kira and other Starfleet types who I am betting were all regular cast members have their character shields to let them whoop ass.
Against:

Klingons routinely man handled by Tailors (Garak) Cardasians (Dukat) Humans (various starfleet officers, an older slower James Kirk in St III hands Kruge his ass) and most telling of all a pregnant Kira Noris. There is also evidence of Ferengi being able to batleth fight with proud Klingon warriors
It was my understanding that most other alien species(cardassians, ferengi, romulan) were supposed to be stronger physically(than humans), so Garak and Dukat can be explained that way. Kirk beating Kruge... well it is Kirk and while he may not have torn his shirt, his son was just killed and the planet was blowing up around them. Besides Kirk fights smart not hard, in "Space Seed" he defeated Kahn in hand to hand and Kahn has superhuman strength.
We never see Klingons actually do any real heavy lifting in the series, unlike Vulcans who are pegged at 5 times human strength and have displayed such abilites consistently throughout Trek but most especially in TOS.
what kind of heavy lifting are you looking for? Worf is usually the guy or one of the guys(Riker or Data are the other two) moving heavy debris on rescue missions.
Where do you fall iin this debate and bring some evidence with you (particulalry in the FOR side if you have any because I am rapidly drawing blanks there.) And can a case be made that Kira is merely a super strong Bajoran :lol:
Kira's kicking butt was as I said before due to her character shields and the futuristic Kung Fu. I do have another Worf example, it is from First Contact when he was able to buttstroke a Borg and kill it when other crewmen tried it the borg kept on comin'. I want to say I remember Worf struggling with a Borg in the TNG series either "Descent" or "BoBW" or maybe even "Q Who?" but I could be wrong. I think it was "BoBW" and if he can hold his own with a Borg physically well, that is some good evidence. I will have to see if I can locate those episodes unless someone here has them on DVD or something.

Posted: 2003-10-29 12:37pm
by FTeik
Worf lifted a human male and threw him against a wall (with one hand) in this DS9-episode, where he and Jadzia were on Risa.

He also defeated Garak aboard the Defiant, when the ship had brought Odo to the new homeworld of the founders.

While Kirk held himself against Kruge on Genesis, the Klingon-Commander wasn´t defeated by Kirk himself, but by the fact, that the rock he was standing on broke apart.

IIRC, Kira Nereys wasn´t pregnant in the episode, where she kicked klingon butts. Nana Visitor was.

Where did Dukat defeat Klingons hand to hand?

Posted: 2003-10-29 12:56pm
by Kamakazie Sith
Patrick Degan wrote:Klingon super strength? Let's see... Worf got beaten up by Ferengi.


MYTH
Ferengi are also suppose to be stronger than humans, according to data in TNG "Last Outpost"

Posted: 2003-10-29 01:22pm
by FTeik
Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:Klingon super strength? Let's see... Worf got beaten up by Ferengi.


MYTH
Ferengi are also suppose to be stronger than humans, according to data in TNG "Last Outpost"
I thought that was the first time they really met the Ferengi, so how can Data know that? Or did he simply guess after seeing them hand Worf his butt?

Posted: 2003-10-29 01:34pm
by Kamakazie Sith
FTeik wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:Klingon super strength? Let's see... Worf got beaten up by Ferengi.


MYTH
Ferengi are also suppose to be stronger than humans, according to data in TNG "Last Outpost"
I thought that was the first time they really met the Ferengi, so how can Data know that? Or did he simply guess after seeing them hand Worf his butt?
Considering Data was engaged in HtH with one or more, I'm sure he had a good idea.

Posted: 2003-10-29 06:13pm
by Superman
I don't think Data said they were stonger. He said something like, 'they are stronger than they look.' Does anyone have the exact quote?

Posted: 2003-10-29 06:30pm
by NecronLord
The last outpost script wrote:52 CONTINUED:

RIKER
I am Commander Riker, first
officer of the USS Enterprise.
Stop now unless you want our
vessel to retaliate...

Upon which, Worf rolls to his feet with a LOUD and
frightening KLINGON GROWL. The Ferengi immediately clap
their hands to their ears and Worf goes for the one
called Mordoc nearest him. But Worf finds he has a
wildcat on his hands.

53 ANOTHER ANGLE (SPECIAL EFFECT)

The Ferengi called Kayron moves to aid Worf's opponent,
lifting his whip to strike, but Data "leaps" from his
prone position, moving with android speed and ease,
grabbing him by the wrist and pulling him at arm's
length off the ground. We HEAR THUNDER again, LOUDER.

54 ANOTHER ANGLE - EMPHASIZING RIKER

as the Ferengi leader, Letek, makes a move.

RIKER
I've got this one!

DATA
Careful, Commander, they're much
stronger than...

Riker finds out how much stronger -- Letek smashes Riker
with a savage right-cross which rolls him over twice and
leaves him completely unconscious.

55 ANOTHER ANGLE

Data and Worf have their hands full.

WORF
(loudly)
PYGMY CRETINS... !

Although with hands over his ears, protecting his
hearing, one of the Ferengi rolls, clamps his legs
around the huge Klingon and brings him to the ground,
hard.

STAR TREK: "The Last Outpost" - 8/7/87 - ACT FOUR 43.

56 ANOTHER ANGLE (OPTICAL)

The remaining two Ferengi go after Data, one hitting him
hard and high, the other equally hard and low --
bringing Data to the ground.
Letek scoops up his
"whip."

LETEK
Kill them.

It sounds no less lethal that the Ferengi says it
quietly. As the other two scramble for their whips:

MORDOC
(hissing quietly)
Hideous monsters!
Two Ferengi can down Data and one Worf...

But it seems to be a matter of technique. I would imagine the feddies (Post TOS) get very little HtH training, wheras the Ferengi would probably buy it before going on an exploration/exploitation mission.

Posted: 2003-10-29 06:41pm
by Kamakazie Sith
NecronLord wrote:
The last outpost script wrote:52 CONTINUED:

RIKER
I am Commander Riker, first
officer of the USS Enterprise.
Stop now unless you want our
vessel to retaliate...

Upon which, Worf rolls to his feet with a LOUD and
frightening KLINGON GROWL. The Ferengi immediately clap
their hands to their ears and Worf goes for the one
called Mordoc nearest him. But Worf finds he has a
wildcat on his hands.

53 ANOTHER ANGLE (SPECIAL EFFECT)

The Ferengi called Kayron moves to aid Worf's opponent,
lifting his whip to strike, but Data "leaps" from his
prone position, moving with android speed and ease,
grabbing him by the wrist and pulling him at arm's
length off the ground. We HEAR THUNDER again, LOUDER.

54 ANOTHER ANGLE - EMPHASIZING RIKER

as the Ferengi leader, Letek, makes a move.

RIKER
I've got this one!

DATA
Careful, Commander, they're much
stronger than...

Riker finds out how much stronger -- Letek smashes Riker
with a savage right-cross which rolls him over twice and
leaves him completely unconscious.

55 ANOTHER ANGLE

Data and Worf have their hands full.

WORF
(loudly)
PYGMY CRETINS... !

Although with hands over his ears, protecting his
hearing, one of the Ferengi rolls, clamps his legs
around the huge Klingon and brings him to the ground,
hard.

STAR TREK: "The Last Outpost" - 8/7/87 - ACT FOUR 43.

56 ANOTHER ANGLE (OPTICAL)

The remaining two Ferengi go after Data, one hitting him
hard and high, the other equally hard and low --
bringing Data to the ground.
Letek scoops up his
"whip."

LETEK
Kill them.

It sounds no less lethal that the Ferengi says it
quietly. As the other two scramble for their whips:

MORDOC
(hissing quietly)
Hideous monsters!
Two Ferengi can down Data and one Worf...

But it seems to be a matter of technique. I would imagine the feddies (Post TOS) get very little HtH training, wheras the Ferengi would probably buy it before going on an exploration/exploitation mission.
Though it's been a long time since I've seen that episode I'm pretty sure that was cut from the actual episode.

Posted: 2003-10-29 06:44pm
by NecronLord
Humm, I havent seen it for a few years, but I'm sure I remember that.

If it wasn't, what's the canon status of Trek Shooting scripts?

Posted: 2003-10-29 06:47pm
by Kamakazie Sith
NecronLord wrote:Humm, I havent seen it for a few years, but I'm sure I remember that.

If it wasn't, what's the canon status of Trek Shooting scripts?

IIRC they have no canon status at all.

Posted: 2003-10-29 07:32pm
by Uraniun235
"Pygmy cretins"?!? :wtf:

Posted: 2003-10-29 09:43pm
by Jeremy
that was the first time we see Ferengi, not so for the UFP or StarFleet

Posted: 2003-10-29 09:45pm
by Spanky The Dolphin
What does that have to do with the actual discussion?

Posted: 2003-10-30 05:27am
by Sir Sirius
Perhaps Klingon strenght is not due to their biology, but their culture. Klingons value martial prowes and strenght more then humans do and perhaps as a result most Klingons are in better shape then most humans, also Klingons appear to be slightly larger on the averige then humans.

Posted: 2003-11-01 04:25pm
by Enola Straight
Didn't B'elanna Torres defeat Borek (sp?) in a PonnFarr mating ritual death fight?

Posted: 2003-11-01 05:16pm
by Jeremy
What does that have to do with the actual discussion?
Sorry, was replying to something further up.

Re: Klingon super strength myth or fact?

Posted: 2003-11-01 11:01pm
by seanrobertson
It's been awhile since I've been here--anywhere on SD.net. I should really make more of an effort to stick around! :)
After watching DS9 Season 4 and 5 and anxiously waiting for Season 6 (Nov. 4) I remember certain discussions here about Klingon prowess in battle and the oft claimed but never proven stipulation that Klingons were stronger than humans.
Hiya Stravo.

In the past, I've demonstrated that some Klingons are stronger than the average adult human male, but as Lord Mike said, "super strength"--that which is beyond us altogether--is indeed a myth.

Allow me to elaborate.
For:

Worf complains to Jadzia at one point about having to live his life always concerned and holding back unless he hurt the far more fragile humans and recounts a story where as a teen he headbutts another teenage human and shatters his neck.

The parasite aliens in Conspiracy thought it a feat of strength to go up against Worf. (and handed him his ass)

Jem'Hadar consider Klingons more on their par in terms of strength and fighting prowess (though many of these 'super' soldiers get their asses handed to them by humans and Kira Noris.)
While we're talking about dialogue, I should mention Harry Kim's fantasy of being "as strong as a Klingon." And since we know something of Vulcan strength, I suppose Sisko's remark about Worf's strength (inferred) against a Vulcan crew is admissable too ("Take Me Out to the Holosuite").

As with anything, however, I prefer to focus on observed feats of strength. Most of that dialogue could easily be blown off as bullshit, especially Harry Dimwit's comment.

1--Kruge lifted Kirk a half meter off the ground with two hands (ST III);

2--Worf lifted some Federation political-type off the floor single-handed, then casually tossed him a meter backwards ("Let He Who Is Without Sin...");

3--Gowron and/or Martok fought with Worf in hand-to-hand, neither combatant vastly stronger/weaker than the other;

4--You're on the right track, Enola: Torres wrestled and simply overpowered Vulcan Ensign Vorik ("Blood Fever"): http://www.uss-voyager.bravepages.com/ep58b.htm.

I prefer to discard 4. Vorik was in Pon Farr, and it seems Vulcans aren't physically up to snuff when so afflicited: McCoy said Spock didn't stand a chance against Stonn "in his condition," which must refer to Pon Farr ("Amok Time"). Torres was also sick, under the influence of something, or otherwise potentially abnormal in that episode as well.

Still, I figured I'd point it out.

3 does little save to demonstrate that we've seen at least four Klingons with strength somewhere in the same ballpark. As such, even if we regard burlier guys like Worf or Martok as exceptionally strong, smaller Klingons like Gowron and Kruge are strong too.

Therefore, 1 and 2 are where I'd direct most of my focus.

It's difficult to judge just how strong Kruge was in 1; I can really only call on my oft-quoted weight training experience to determine anything. (Be warned! I know it probably gets tiresome.) Lifting people at strange angles is different than pushing a barbell overhead, so we need examples of people lifting other people, basically.

Unfortunately I don't know much about that. All I can say is, not too long ago, I was joking around with a high school kid at a local hobby shop.
He ribbed me about being big but probably not strong at all. He knows this is untrue, but was just playing around. For kicks I grabbed him by the armpits and hoisted him up into the air.

I didn't have trouble doing that. He weighs 175 or so. I haven't tried, but I could probably do something similar with a guy ~50 lbs. heavier. At that point I'd be really struggling, however, and I doubt I could do any more.

I don't know exactly what Kirk weighed in ST3, but Kruge lifted him from a more disadvantageous angle (hands very close together). As such, even if Kirk was "only" 200-210, Kruge's strength is probably comparable to mine or he might be a bit stronger.

(Bastard...but I digress :) )

Based on beginners I've trained, and if you averaged performance on lots of basic lifts, I figure I'm 3, but probably not more than 4 times stronger than the average untrained man.

That's pretty simple: if Kruge can do something I'd struggle with, and isn't necessarily his upper-limit, he's probably thrice the average man's strength. Say it's in that general vicinity anyway.

2 is even more difficult to quantify. Worf yanked that guy off the floor single-handed, then had enough energy left to toss him away. I couldn't even begin to do that with an adult, nor am I inclined to try.

So, at a rough guess, I'd say Worf is probably as strong as a good powerlifter. He should be able to press more than 300 lbs. overhead, translating to a ~500 lbs. bench press. If his lower body strength was proportionate, he'd squat and deadlift somewhere around 700 lbs., making him a good 5 times stronger than the average man.

Needless to say, that's much more than I'd expect from someone with Mike Dorn's build. So, if Worf's not a total aberration, you could conclude Klingons are stronger than us pound for pound; BUT, just as with people, a heavier, more muscular Klingon like Worf is not indicative of the AVERAGE Klingon.
Against:

Klingons routinely man handled by Tailors (Garak) Cardasians (Dukat) Humans (various starfleet officers, an older slower James Kirk in St III hands Kruge his ass) and most telling of all a pregnant Kira Noris. There is also evidence of Ferengi being able to batleth fight with proud Klingon warriors
Your original statement was thus: "I remember...the oft claimed but never proven stipulation that Klingons were stronger than humans."

Well, what do other species have to do with this? :) We don't have a quantification of Cardassian, Bajoran or Ferengi strength--just conjecture based on such things as a Ferengi's height ;)

Those examples might still be useful but I'd put them on the back burner...from what you've cited, only Kirk vs. Kruge directly addresses your question.

Furthermore, with all respects, as stated it reads like a false dichotomy: "Either Kruge whips Kirk's ass, or he's not significantly stronger than Kirk."

I've run across people who I'm sure could give me a good fight or kick my ass outright (again, I didn't bother to find out), and I'm sure I have a marked strength advantage over the guys I have in mind.

Conclusion: there's more to fighting than sheer strength, especially when the disparity is less than 5 to 1. So, saying a few Ferengi managed to get Worf on the ground isn't proof of...well, anything but they can do just that. It certainly doesn't mean that Klingons and humans are roughly matched.

For clarity's sake, it bears repeating: Klingons don't have "super" strength. Their average strength-weight ratio seems to be somewhat greater, but a very highly trained man could match what we've seen Worf do. Some men could probably do better.

That brings us to Sir Sirius' excellent point: are Klingons naturally this strong, or is that strength the product of intensive training?

Since we've never seen a Klingon working with weights, or moving around in a high gee holodeck simulation, I'd say the latter explanation is unsubstantiated but certainly possible.

Again, though, it could always be a bit of both.

Posted: 2003-11-01 11:46pm
by The Silence and I
I'm going to have to say I respect Sean's position here, he always seems to know what he is talking about, and his visual evidence is clear.
Trying to explain lethargic actions of less important Klingons who get beaten by other aliens and humans, well bad writing comes to mind, but perhaps the average Klingon is mostly bluff? Meaning the average Klingon wears mostly useless armor and acts tough but this is only a cover for what is really an untrained grunt who wants to find a glorious death. Facing well trained characters would then be quite the mismatch.