Scimitar vs. Ent-E

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-10-26 11:54pm

The Kernel wrote:The problem with calling the Soverign a battleship is that it got totally owned by the Scimitar in Star Trek Nemesis, despite getting in plenty of good hits and having two allied ships. Considering that Romulan and Federation technology are roughly similar, we have to assume that the Soverign isn't a battleship at all or it would have been able to put up a much better fight.

Not quite. The Scimitar merely proves that when built large and space is used efficently, ships can be quite powerful. This does not change the fact that the Sovereign is extremely powerful and since its most recent upgrade it has superior shields and armor then the Prometheus.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-10-26 11:54pm

The Kernel wrote:The problem with calling the Soverign a battleship is that it got totally owned by the Scimitar in Star Trek Nemesis, despite getting in plenty of good hits and having two allied ships. Considering that Romulan and Federation technology are roughly similar, we have to assume that the Soverign isn't a battleship at all or it would have been able to put up a much better fight.

That's not necessarily the case. The Scimitar is more of a behemoth battleship like the Yamatos or the Montanas to the Enterprise-E's King George IV. She's a lighter battleship going up against a behemoth.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-10-27 12:02am

Stormbringer wrote:
The Kernel wrote:The problem with calling the Soverign a battleship is that it got totally owned by the Scimitar in Star Trek Nemesis, despite getting in plenty of good hits and having two allied ships. Considering that Romulan and Federation technology are roughly similar, we have to assume that the Soverign isn't a battleship at all or it would have been able to put up a much better fight.

That's not necessarily the case. The Scimitar is more of a behemoth battleship like the Yamatos or the Montanas to the Enterprise-E's King George IV. She's a lighter battleship going up against a behemoth.

It's a pretty big disparity though. From the way the battle raged, it would probably have taken four or more EE's to defeat the Scimitar.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-10-27 12:07am

The Kernel wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:
The Kernel wrote:The problem with calling the Soverign a battleship is that it got totally owned by the Scimitar in Star Trek Nemesis, despite getting in plenty of good hits and having two allied ships. Considering that Romulan and Federation technology are roughly similar, we have to assume that the Soverign isn't a battleship at all or it would have been able to put up a much better fight.

That's not necessarily the case. The Scimitar is more of a behemoth battleship like the Yamatos or the Montanas to the Enterprise-E's King George IV. She's a lighter battleship going up against a behemoth.
It's a pretty big disparity though. From the way the battle raged, it would probably have taken four or more EE's to defeat the Scimitar.

Not necessarily. Remember, the Scimitar took out warp power with its alpha strike, thus greatly reducing shield and phaser strenght, and then had the advantage of a cloak. In terms of straight up raw firepower, the disparity wouldn't necessarily be as great.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-10-27 12:07am

Alyeska wrote:
The Kernel wrote:The problem with calling the Soverign a battleship is that it got totally owned by the Scimitar in Star Trek Nemesis, despite getting in plenty of good hits and having two allied ships. Considering that Romulan and Federation technology are roughly similar, we have to assume that the Soverign isn't a battleship at all or it would have been able to put up a much better fight.
Not quite. The Scimitar merely proves that when built large and space is used efficently, ships can be quite powerful. This does not change the fact that the Sovereign is extremely powerful and since its most recent upgrade it has superior shields and armor then the Prometheus.

But that misses the definition of a battleship:

Battleship--Any one of a class of warships of the largest size, carrying the greatest number of weapons and clad with the heaviest armor.

The Scimitar is obviously a battleship, so what is the E-E? It can't be a battlecruiser either:

A large warship with lighter armor but greater maneuverability than a battleship.

70% shields after the entire torpedo load was exausted, not to mention a glancing collision and disruptor fire from the other two warbirds? Even when you factor in misses from the cloak, there is a huge firepower disparity between these two ships which suggests that the E-E isn't really a warship at all, and that Starfleet either doesn't have a ship that qualifies as a battleship/battlecruiser or we haven't seen them.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-10-27 12:09am

Ender wrote:Not necessarily. Remember, the Scimitar took out warp power with its alpha strike, thus greatly reducing shield and phaser strenght, and then had the advantage of a cloak. In terms of straight up raw firepower, the disparity wouldn't necessarily be as great.

Did you see the number of torpedo strikes the Scimitar took? What do you think that would have done to the E-E's shields, not to mention the rest of the damage.

As far as the "alpha" strike, they didn't use nearly the amount of weapons that Worf claimed that had did they?

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-10-27 12:10am

The Kernel wrote:70% shields after the entire torpedo load was exausted, not to mention a glancing collision and disruptor fire from the other two warbirds? Even when you factor in misses from the cloak, there is a huge firepower disparity between these two ships which suggests that the E-E isn't really a warship at all, and that Starfleet either doesn't have a ship that qualifies as a battleship/battlecruiser or we haven't seen them.

You assume it had a full load of torpedos starting the mission instead of just a handful, when an argument can be made that the E-E went in relatively unarmed.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-10-27 12:14am

Ender wrote:
The Kernel wrote:70% shields after the entire torpedo load was exausted, not to mention a glancing collision and disruptor fire from the other two warbirds? Even when you factor in misses from the cloak, there is a huge firepower disparity between these two ships which suggests that the E-E isn't really a warship at all, and that Starfleet either doesn't have a ship that qualifies as a battleship/battlecruiser or we haven't seen them.
You assume it had a full load of torpedos starting the mission instead of just a handful, when an argument can be made that the E-E went in relatively unarmed.

I suppose, but we saw plenty of confirmed hits which any other Starfleet vessel would have been crippled from. Plus, we are talking about two other Romulan warships that seemed to be pretty capable (although somewhat fragile) and 70% shields was the best they could do?

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-10-27 12:15am

The Kernel wrote:
Ender wrote:Not necessarily. Remember, the Scimitar took out warp power with its alpha strike, thus greatly reducing shield and phaser strenght, and then had the advantage of a cloak. In terms of straight up raw firepower, the disparity wouldn't necessarily be as great.
Did you see the number of torpedo strikes the Scimitar took? What do you think that would have done to the E-E's shields, not to mention the rest of the damage.

It took ~ 10 IIRC. Torps are about 5 MT a pop so thats 50 MT. The GCS had 30 MT shields, call the Sovereign 1.5 times greater, and we know that running shields off warp power gets you a 300% increase, so that gives total shields of ~135 MT. To after all those hits, it would have been at 62% strength. As opposed to the 70% the Scimitar was at.

As far as the "alpha" strike, they didn't use nearly the amount of weapons that Worf claimed that had did they?

Nope, thing was holding back hence why i didn't say the E-e would be superior, just closer to an even match.

And you totally missed my point that the thing was fighting after being hamstrung.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-10-27 12:21am

The Kernel wrote:But that misses the definition of a battleship:

Battleship--Any one of a class of warships of the largest size, carrying the greatest number of weapons and clad with the heaviest armor.
The Scimitar is obviously a battleship, so what is the E-E? It can't be a battlecruiser either:

A large warship with lighter armor but greater maneuverability than a battleship.
70% shields after the entire torpedo load was exausted, not to mention a glancing collision and disruptor fire from the other two warbirds? Even when you factor in misses from the cloak, there is a huge firepower disparity between these two ships which suggests that the E-E isn't really a warship at all, and that Starfleet either doesn't have a ship that qualifies as a battleship/battlecruiser or we haven't seen them.

Those are rather simplistic definitions and don't get it quite fit reality.

The Soveriegn-class is clearly a battleship class alibiet a light one. I think it's fair to note that the Scimitar outmasses the Enterprise by a fair amount and that the Enterprise was by no means at the top of her game. It's like putting HMS Dreadnaught up against the USS Montana (had she actually been built). It was a total mismatch and shouldn't really be considered the definitive benchmark for the Soveriegn.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-10-27 12:21am

Ender wrote:It took ~ 10 IIRC. Torps are about 5 MT a pop so thats 50 MT. The GCS had 30 MT shields, call the Sovereign 1.5 times greater, and we know that running shields off warp power gets you a 300% increase, so that gives total shields of ~135 MT. To after all those hits, it would have been at 62% strength. As opposed to the 70% the Scimitar was at.

It was closer to 20 IIRC (damn, I actually have to go sit through this fucking movie again to check...) and that's on top of collision damage that was similar to the USS Bozeman hit on the Enterprise-D, several phaser strikes and numerous disruptor hits from the Warbirds. Sounds like a lot more than any Starfleet ship we've seen could handle.

Nope, thing was holding back hence why i didn't say the E-e would be superior, just closer to an even match.

And you totally missed my point that the thing was fighting after being hamstrung.

Except that we've never seen warp combat to be nearly as effective as sublight. Remember how much punishment the stolen Jem'Haddar fighter took when they went up against the Akira-class? It withstood several volleys from a medium cruiser and it didn't do much of anything to it.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-10-27 12:28am

The Kernel wrote:
Ender wrote:It took ~ 10 IIRC. Torps are about 5 MT a pop so thats 50 MT. The GCS had 30 MT shields, call the Sovereign 1.5 times greater, and we know that running shields off warp power gets you a 300% increase, so that gives total shields of ~135 MT. To after all those hits, it would have been at 62% strength. As opposed to the 70% the Scimitar was at.
It was closer to 20 IIRC (damn, I actually have to go sit through this fucking movie again to check...) and that's on top of collision damage that was similar to the USS Bozeman hit on the Enterprise-D, several phaser strikes and numerous disruptor hits from the Warbirds. Sounds like a lot more than any Starfleet ship we've seen could handle.

I agree with you that it is more then a Starfleet ship can handle. What I'm saying is that it isn't a huge gapins disparity. I figure the scimitar outmatches a Sovie by a third again or so.

Nope, thing was holding back hence why i didn't say the E-e would be superior, just closer to an even match.

And you totally missed my point that the thing was fighting after being hamstrung.
Except that we've never seen warp combat to be nearly as effective as sublight. Remember how much punishment the stolen Jem'Haddar fighter took when they went up against the Akira-class? It withstood several volleys from a medium cruiser and it didn't do much of anything to it.

Again I think you are missing my point.

Yes, the E-E, which was concentrating on running at the time and thus probably had minimal shields, lost its main power to a surgical strike in an environment where weapons ae less effective.

This does nto change the point that the main fight, which people use to establish a benchmark for the Scimitar, happened once the E-E had lost main power and was running off its emergencies only.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-10-27 12:41am

Ender wrote: Yes, the E-E, which was concentrating on running at the time and thus probably had minimal shields, lost its main power to a surgical strike in an environment where weapons ae less effective.

This does nto change the point that the main fight, which people use to establish a benchmark for the Scimitar, happened once the E-E had lost main power and was running off its emergencies only.

Where are you getting this from? When during that did it say they lost main power? They seemed to be doing quite well for a ship that was running on emergency power...

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2003-10-27 12:44am

And this thread has been hijacked.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-10-27 01:00am

Aya wrote:And this thread has been hijacked.

Sorry, I didn't do it intentionally. I'm leaving now.

EDIT: I'm back seeing as how the thread got split.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-10-27 10:40am

The Kernel wrote:
Ender wrote: Yes, the E-E, which was concentrating on running at the time and thus probably had minimal shields, lost its main power to a surgical strike in an environment where weapons ae less effective.

This does nto change the point that the main fight, which people use to establish a benchmark for the Scimitar, happened once the E-E had lost main power and was running off its emergencies only.
Where are you getting this from? When during that did it say they lost main power?

You do realize the warp core is the main power for the ship, right?

They seemed to be doing quite well for a ship that was running on emergency power...

Yes, if you consider getting your ass handed to you by someone not going for a kill "quite well"

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-10-27 03:50pm

You do realize the warp core is the main power for the ship, right?

And yet in Best of Both Worlds, Riker was concerned about not having the impulse engines to draw on for power if the ship separated.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-10-27 03:52pm

Uraniun235 wrote:
You do realize the warp core is the main power for the ship, right?
And yet in Best of Both Worlds, Riker was concerned about not having the impulse engines to draw on for power if the ship separated.

Yes, it wasn't until the Dominion War era that they began running things off warp power and getting huge returns from it.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-10-27 04:19pm

Ender wrote:You do realize the warp core is the main power for the ship, right?

And you aren't answering my question. When during the first barrage did they say they lost the warp core? In fact, when was this said at all?

Yes, if you consider getting your ass handed to you by someone not going for a kill "quite well"

If the Enterprise-E was such a match for the Scimitar, then why the hell did they need a fleet to even attempt to take her down?

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-10-27 04:21pm

Ender wrote:
Uraniun235 wrote:
You do realize the warp core is the main power for the ship, right?
And yet in Best of Both Worlds, Riker was concerned about not having the impulse engines to draw on for power if the ship separated.
Yes, it wasn't until the Dominion War era that they began running things off warp power and getting huge returns from it.

Where the hell did this come from?

They didn't start running things off warp power until the Dominion War? Please, I need to hear the source on this one.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-10-27 07:43pm

Ender wrote:Yes, it wasn't until the Dominion War era that they began running things off warp power and getting huge returns from it.

Sources please.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-10-27 07:49pm

Ender wrote:
Uraniun235 wrote:
You do realize the warp core is the main power for the ship, right?
And yet in Best of Both Worlds, Riker was concerned about not having the impulse engines to draw on for power if the ship separated.
Yes, it wasn't until the Dominion War era that they began running things off warp power and getting huge returns from it.

Really? I thought that began during the TOS movies.......

Remember TMP...they say something to that effect during the asteroid scene.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-10-27 07:51pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Really? I thought that began during the TOS movies.......

Remember TMP...they say something to that effect during the asteroid scene.

They said that they increased phaser efficiency by channeling them through the main engines.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-10-27 07:53pm

The Kernel wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Really? I thought that began during the TOS movies.......

Remember TMP...they say something to that effect during the asteroid scene.
They said that they increased phaser efficiency by channeling them through the main engines.

Ahh just phasers.....alright.

BTW I think four SCS would be overkill against the Scimitar. Though it seems as though anyones reasonable guess would be acceptable.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-10-27 08:07pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Ahh just phasers.....alright.

BTW I think four SCS would be overkill against the Scimitar. Though it seems as though anyones reasonable guess would be acceptable.

The problem is that the quote is increadibly vague and doesn't really tell us anything. Realistically, they MUST have been getting power from the warp drive for the weapons though. They even admitted as much in TOS "Elan of Troyis"; when the warp engines were sabotaged, they could no longer use phasers OR photons, even at reduced power.

Maybe four Soverigns could take down a Scimitar, but keep in mind that they were planning to jump it with SEVEN starships including the E-E and at least one other large cruiser (probably a GCS), so even if the others were Excelsior refits and smaller, that's still an awful lot of firepower to take down a single ship.