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I've recently been watching Season 1 of DS9 and noted some Odo oddities. Two, actually. One being that he can apparently produce a working commbadge, and the other being that he can be knocked unconscious for some reason by falling rocks.

So how does a being with no definable anatomy get knocked unconscious from a blow to the head?

Dalton wrote:So how does a being with no definable anatomy get knocked unconscious from a blow to the head?

Hydrostatic shock disrupting nerve signals? Honestly, without knowing more about his biology, it's probably not possible to completely answer that question.

I don't think he makes the comm badge. I think the producers just forgot about it, they mention it in the DS9 Companion.

I don't think he makes the com badge either. He probably just stores it in his body.

Dalton wrote:
So how does a being with no definable anatomy get knocked unconscious from a blow to the head?

Most likely it would be explained as one of those "from following fuction" type of things.

When he's in humanoid form he must pick up some of the attributes of a humanoid at the same time. I know it was implied early on that he just looked humanoid on the outside but considering that the only way that Starfleet was able to detect any of the other Founders was to stun them they must be able to completely duplicate an object down to the molecular level.

Dalton wrote:So how does a being with no definable anatomy get knocked unconscious from a blow to the head?

Well, what happens when you drop a rock into a pond? The water ripples. If a ripple-type effect went through the interior of Odo's body, it might have incapacitated him for a while.

I'm guessing, of course.

Kuja wrote:

Dalton wrote:So how does a being with no definable anatomy get knocked unconscious from a blow to the head?

Well, what happens when you drop a rock into a pond? The water ripples. If a ripple-type effect went through the interior of Odo's body, it might have incapacitated him for a while.

I'm guessing, of course.

Makes sense to me.

I think Odo was just a really lousy shapeshifter in the 1st season. His face got noticably better in the next couple of years, and in a 3rd season episode, Odo protects Kira (actually the Female Changeling pretending to be Kira) from an extremely violent shower of large rocks without noticable injury. So his vulnerability to blunt trauma probably declined with his increase in skill.

Also there is the issue of faces. Odo claimed he never could get faces right despite becoming much more complicated organisms, but I suspect it was actually a mental block. When Odo merged with Curzon's personality, he grew spots and a more Trilll-like appearance. Also, in one of the last episodes in Season 7, he mimics the Female Changeling. So it makes sense that Odo had trouble duplicating faces because he couldn't mentally "become" other people, but his mental links with Curzon and the Female Changeling let him get past the block in their cases.

Another oddity you can add up is that he can change his mass at will. He can be as heavy as a man or light enough to fly as a Bird....

Odo's changes in mass are really annoying from a scientific standpoint. Not only can he shrink to the size (and apparently mass) of a rat or bird, he also grew larger (and apparently more massive) on at least one occasion ("The Alternate").

There's also the question of what Odo does for sustenance. He apparently doesn't eat or drink, since in one episode (I don't remember which) he was demonstrating that he could pretend to be drinking liquid from a mug, when in fact the mug and the liquid it contained were really parts of his body. In "The Alternate", Odo was also causing power failures in his vicinity when he went into his "monster" form, so I'm wondering if he somehow absorbs energy from his environment. If so, there must be limits to such absorbtion, since Founders can be destroyed by phasers and disruptors.

Chris OFarrell wrote:Another oddity you can add up is that he can change his mass at will. He can be as heavy as a man or light enough to fly as a Bird....

And Changelings can turn into fire.

For some reason I remember a story someone told on DS9 about how someone out smarted a changeling in a challenge of ability. The changeling boasted about being able to become anything big or small and the person challenged him to show him by taking various shapes the finally he challenged him to become a great mountain and so the changleing did so. Then he challenged him to become a loaf of bread and so the changeling did and the man the ate the changeling.
I don't remember the episode and maybe I was smoking crack and dreamed that, but I remember that story from DS9...
It shows how the changelings become whatever they turn into.

Ted C wrote:Odo's changes in mass are really annoying from a scientific standpoint. Not only can he shrink to the size (and apparently mass) of a rat or bird, he also grew larger (and apparently more massive) on at least one occasion ("The Alternate").

Federation technology has the ability to create the effect of "mass-lighteneing"...perhaps the Founder's species has some sort of biological method of accomplishing the same thing.

There's also the question of what Odo does for sustenance. He apparently doesn't eat or drink, since in one episode (I don't remember which) he was demonstrating that he could pretend to be drinking liquid from a mug, when in fact the mug and the liquid it contained were really parts of his body. In "The Alternate", Odo was also causing power failures in his vicinity when he went into his "monster" form, so I'm wondering if he somehow absorbs energy from his environment. If so, there must be limits to such absorbtion, since Founders can be destroyed by phasers and disruptors.

Sounds reasonable to me. Just because we cannot percieve how something is gathering energy to use doesn't mean it isn't. Scientifically, it has to either gather or have energy available in order to use it.

Death from the Sea wrote:For some reason I remember a story someone told on DS9 about how someone out smarted a changeling in a challenge of ability. The changeling boasted about being able to become anything big or small and the person challenged him to show him by taking various shapes the finally he challenged him to become a great mountain and so the changleing did so. Then he challenged him to become a loaf of bread and so the changeling did and the man the ate the changeling.
I don't remember the episode and maybe I was smoking crack and dreamed that, but I remember that story from DS9...
It shows how the changelings become whatever they turn into.

Sounds more along the lines of a fable to me, personally. Like a "boy tricking the giant" kind of thing...

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Sounds more along the lines of a fable to me, personally. Like a "boy tricking the giant" kind of thing...

It was just a fable, and the little girl telling it wanted to see Odo transform. He did at the end of the episode, turning into a top-like thing.

Robert Walper wrote:Federation technology has the ability to create the effect of "mass-lighteneing"...perhaps the Founder's species has some sort of biological method of accomplishing the same thing.

What you're suggesting is that Changelings can shift arbitrary portions of their mass into subspace (or some other alternate universe) and draw not only their own normal mass, but even more, out of subspace, all of this at will. Outlandish as it sounds, I'm not going to dismiss the notion out of hand, since it's a better explanation than direct conversion of mass into energy in a short time frame (since Odo changing from humanoid to rat or bird form would involve an energy release of thermonuclear proportions).

Kuja wrote:

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Sounds more along the lines of a fable to me, personally. Like a "boy tricking the giant" kind of thing...

It was just a fable, and the little girl telling it wanted to see Odo transform. He did at the end of the episode, turning into a top-like thing.

Oh, that episode. Yeah, I saw that a few times a long time ago. But wasn't he just spinning so that his transformation into a bird would look more impressive?

Ted C wrote:

Robert Walper wrote:Federation technology has the ability to create the effect of "mass-lighteneing"...perhaps the Founder's species has some sort of biological method of accomplishing the same thing.

What you're suggesting is that Changelings can shift arbitrary portions of their mass into subspace (or some other alternate universe) and draw not only their own normal mass, but even more, out of subspace, all of this at will.

One should assume instead their mass is constant. It doesn't change or get added to, they just don't actually bring all of their mass out of subspace, or if they do, only rarely, like when Odo turned into that large monster thingy/whatever. Refining this "theory", one might suggest if they did bring all their mass out of subspace, they'd lose the capability to shift any back again.

Outlandish as it sounds, I'm not going to dismiss the notion out of hand, since it's a better explanation than direct conversion of mass into energy in a short time frame (since Odo changing from humanoid to rat or bird form would involve an energy release of thermonuclear proportions).

Was just an offhand comment on my part. I won't make any serious attempt to justify it as the most likely theory. Again, limitations of my knowledge on physics intervenes, but then again, who can truely be knowledgable about Trek physics?

Spanky The Dolphin wrote: Sounds more along the lines of a fable to me, personally. Like a "boy tricking the giant" kind of thing...

Actually the story came from Puss in Boots in where Puss tricks the giant into becoming a mouse and dinner so the giant's castle can belong to Puss's master....

Ted C wrote:Odo's changes in mass are really annoying from a scientific standpoint. Not only can he shrink to the size (and apparently mass) of a rat or bird, he also grew larger (and apparently more massive) on at least one occasion ("The Alternate").

There's also the question of what Odo does for sustenance. He apparently doesn't eat or drink, since in one episode (I don't remember which) he was demonstrating that he could pretend to be drinking liquid from a mug, when in fact the mug and the liquid it contained were really parts of his body. In "The Alternate", Odo was also causing power failures in his vicinity when he went into his "monster" form, so I'm wondering if he somehow absorbs energy from his environment. If so, there must be limits to such absorbtion, since Founders can be destroyed by phasers and disruptors.

And also note that Changelings can absorb an astonishing amonut of energy weapons. In 'Acopolypse Rising' the Founder that was trying to strangle Odo when hit by disruptor fire simply was stuned, until a dozen Klingons in the room also opened up and pounded it for five seconds. Only THEN did it explode from the energy.

Er, what about the first episode of DS9 that had the Mirror Universe? Odo got pasted in one shot from a phaser.

Uraniun235 wrote:Er, what about the first episode of DS9 that had the Mirror Universe? Odo got pasted in one shot from a phaser.

Well first note that Odo there had never had any contact with the Founders so he had never learned to more accuratly control his shapeshifting abilities. He was never as advanced as other founders. So he may well have not been able to absorb the energy like another founder would.

Either that or the Bajoran phaser in the mirror universe was bloody insane in power or something. I chose option one as it makes the most sense...