Enterprise-E VS Defiant

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-10-26 03:03am

Basically, the two ships see each other (out of weapons range). And decide to fight. For the record, Worf is on the Defiant, and so is Garak. The Enterprise has that Daniels guy at tactical.

Bald man versus another bald man.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-10-26 03:40am

E-E. Aside from outgunniong the little thing, its sheer size simply means it can take more punishment before it dies.

Sothis · Post by **Sothis** » 2003-10-26 07:31am

If the Defiant could get in right behind the Enterprise and fire away relentlessly with pulse phasers and quantum torps, it might have a chance. Trouble is, it would require an exceptional pilot to counter any evasive action on the part of the Enterprise, and all it would take would be one jink to bring the phaser arrarys into play, and the Enterprise could happily bounce the Defiant all over the place.

Oberleutnant · Post by **Oberleutnant** » 2003-10-26 09:35am

A bit one-sided match, Gandalf.

Remember that Defiant had some trouble copeing with a heavily(?) refitted Excelsior-class vessel Lakota in "Paradise Lost". It's been a while since I saw the episode, but I believe Lakota's refit included quantum torpedoes. However, I see no 'realistic' way how Starfleet could upgrade an Excelsior to even closely match a Sovereign.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-10-26 10:46am

The Defiant could try to ram the E-E and go for a draw trough mutual annihiliation, but apart from that the E-E takes this one.

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2003-10-26 07:49pm

The Defiant has a cloak. If they're lucky, they might be able to approach the E-E under cloak, then decloak and fire off a salvo before the Enterprise gets her shields up. Otherwise, I don't see how it could stand much of a chance.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-10-26 09:20pm

Drooling Iguana wrote:The Defiant has a cloak. If they're lucky, they might be able to approach the E-E under cloak, then decloak and fire off a salvo before the Enterprise gets her shields up. Otherwise, I don't see how it could stand much of a chance.

1) Only the first Defiant had the cloak, the OP doesn't specify which one i is so its presence cannot be assumed
2) the statemetn in Nemeisis that the new cloak is totally undetectable indicates that starfleet has learned that there are tell tale signs that a lone ship can pick up on to detect cloaked vessels and now scans for them. This could alert them to its presence prior to the alpha strike.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-10-26 09:43pm

Defiant == oversized FAC
Enterprise == Battlecruiser

I think the answer is obvious, then

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-10-26 09:44pm

Ender wrote:
Drooling Iguana wrote:The Defiant has a cloak. If they're lucky, they might be able to approach the E-E under cloak, then decloak and fire off a salvo before the Enterprise gets her shields up. Otherwise, I don't see how it could stand much of a chance.
1) Only the first Defiant had the cloak, the OP doesn't specify which one i is so its presence cannot be assumed

AFAIK, Worf only served on the Defiant, so his presence would seem to suggest that it is, indeed, the Defiant herself.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-10-26 11:07pm

Sorry, I did mean Sisko's Defiant. Note the bald man vs. bald man bit. I mentioned Worf as a bit of a joke because in every TNG movie he's there.

I figured it's maneuverability and cloak might give it an edge, plus those oddly fast pulse phasers.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-10-26 11:25pm

The Lakota never used her Quantum Torps and they still got the Defiant down to almost dead status. This isn't much of a contest.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2003-10-26 11:39pm

The Kernel wrote:The Lakota never used her Quantum Torps and they still got the Defiant down to almost dead status. This isn't much of a contest.

Except in the case of that battle I don't think that the crews of either ship were fully into it so to me it isn't entirely valid, although not totally invalid either.

I think better basis for how a Defiant class ship might do would be the mirror universe pseudo-Defiant verses Worf's "Negvar", or the Defiant class ship that went up against the Dominon Dreadnaught. Although, I think there are exentuating circumstances in both battles (over confidence on Worf's part in the first battle and some wack-job cadets crewing the Valiant in the second cas).

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-10-26 11:46pm

How about the Dominion War era Defiant, it seems to be a lot stronger there. It keeps blowing up many Dominion ships. Though I assume there were some weapons upgrades on their part though.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-10-26 11:56pm

The Defiant has not change at all since it was introduced. The only ships that recieved upgrades for the war would be the Galaxy class, Mirandas (old reserve ships updated for war) and Excelsiors (same as Miranda).

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2003-10-27 12:56am

Ender wrote:
Drooling Iguana wrote:The Defiant has a cloak. If they're lucky, they might be able to approach the E-E under cloak, then decloak and fire off a salvo before the Enterprise gets her shields up. Otherwise, I don't see how it could stand much of a chance.
1) Only the first Defiant had the cloak, the OP doesn't specify which one i is so its presence cannot be assumed

The second Defiant was only in two or three episodes, I think, while the first was used regularily from season 3 to 7. When someone mentions Defiant, I think it's safe to assume that they're talking about the original.

2) the statemetn in Nemeisis that the new cloak is totally undetectable indicates that starfleet has learned that there are tell tale signs that a lone ship can pick up on to detect cloaked vessels and now scans for them. This could alert them to its presence prior to the alpha strike.

Perhaps there are telltale signs of a cloaked ship, but that doesn't mean that they're completely worthless. Just because it might be possible to find a cloaked ship doesn't mean that it would be easy to find it, and it doesn't mean that they'd find it before it got close enough to attack.

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-10-27 02:54am

Drooling Iguana wrote:Perhaps there are telltale signs of a cloaked ship, but that doesn't mean that they're completely worthless. Just because it might be possible to find a cloaked ship doesn't mean that it would be easy to find it, and it doesn't mean that they'd find it before it got close enough to attack.

The OP states that the two ships SEE each other and decide to fight. Which means that even if the Defiant cloaks, the E-E will have a reasonable idea of where she is.

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2003-10-27 03:25am

Kuja wrote:
Drooling Iguana wrote:Perhaps there are telltale signs of a cloaked ship, but that doesn't mean that they're completely worthless. Just because it might be possible to find a cloaked ship doesn't mean that it would be easy to find it, and it doesn't mean that they'd find it before it got close enough to attack.
The OP states that the two ships SEE each other and decide to fight. Which means that even if the Defiant cloaks, the E-E will have a reasonable idea of where she is.

Sorry, my mistake.

I guess that means that that whole strategy is pretty much unworkable then, since Enterprise will probably have her shields up regardless of whether or not she's detected Defiant.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2003-10-27 07:12am

The Lakota was a heavily upgraded Excellsor class ship, far beyond what a normal Excelessor class ship would pack. The exact abilities of the Lakota are not known. But we can make some guesses. The phasers packed a whopping punch, knocking 40% of a Defiants shield arc with one salvo. THe Defiant never took that kind of wack from another ship at the start of combat before or after.

This leads me to belive that the Lakota was carrying the same rating phasers as the Enterprise-E does, the Class XII phasers. Even so, she was unable to disable the Defiant, in part because of the ablative armour Sisko had installed and neglected to inform Starfleet command about which foiled any easy disabeling strike on her engines or weapons.

The Defiant which also was fighting back in a very limited fashion managed to win the fight. As in she was still in fighting shape and one good hit would have finished off the Lakota. I'd put that down to the Defiant being a purpose built warship with better battle redundency, damage control and survivability in battle. Where the Lakota, even upgraded with start of the art tech, was never a purpose built warship. Though the Defiant was hardly in perfect shape, just ahead of the Lakota.

Now the E-E, especialy the Mark II E-E carries a stick thats a hell of a lot bigger then the Lakota. The E-E in First Contact and Insurection would have made short work of a Defiant. The E-E in Nemesis appears to have been upgraded with far more powerful phasers, a new group of torpedo tubes and regenerative shields. The Defiant doesn't stand a chance.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-10-27 03:51pm

Where do we get "more powerful phasers" from Nemesis?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-10-27 07:48pm

Chris, even is the Lakota was packing Type-12s it must contend with a smaller warp core and the fact that these are comming from emitters, not arrays. The arrays pack more power. This means a Sovereign can put more power into a larger number of phaser emiters and combine then as we see. One blast from the main array of the Sovereign is probably worth a half dozen shots from the Lokota.

Now who the fuck voted for the Defiant? The thing has FEWER weapons, WEAKER shields, and LESS armor. It also can NOT manuever enough to prevent the Sovereign from hitting it.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2003-10-27 07:51pm

Uraniun235 wrote:Where do we get "more powerful phasers" from Nemesis?

First Contact phasers firing.

http://members.optushome.com.au/rogueone/Phaser4.jpg

Nemesis phasers firing.

http://members.optushome.com.au/rogueone/nemesis.jpg

I'll try to hunt around for a better First Contact screenshot, I used to have a closer one for comparative analysis but lost it. But in short, the phasers fired in Nemesis by the E-E are far thicker with greater luminescence, which leads to the assumption of an upgrade to a more powerful phaser array. Given that they upgraded the Torpedoes as well, its not surprising.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-10-27 11:25pm

That doesn't necessarily make them more powerful chris. The fact that they have greater luminosity means greater energy yes, but since they are wider that energy is spread over a greater area, lowering intensity. Infact, its entirely possible that these could be inferior weapons because of that fact.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-10-27 11:47pm

In real life that would be true, but we have to keep in mind that Enterprise was upgraded, and that they would not replace good weapons with bad ones. Logically, any visual difference suggests a change, and any change should be good.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2003-10-27 11:53pm

Ender wrote:That doesn't necessarily make them more powerful chris. The fact that they have greater luminosity means greater energy yes, but since they are wider that energy is spread over a greater area, lowering intensity. Infact, its entirely possible that these could be inferior weapons because of that fact.

But does it make sense that they would have their ship firing/upgraded with inferior weapons? The fact that the *whole beam* has a greater luminosity accross its entire cross section then the older thiner beams would appear to argue that the phasers are delivering much greater energy per unit of area, tacked on with the thicker beam.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-10-28 12:41am

I am not arguing that they are infact weaker weapons. I am just pointing out that the difference in look does not necessitate them being stronger.

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Enterprise-E VS Defiant

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Enterprise-E VS Defiant