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A startling fact I have discovered for myself whilst looking up information on Sulu's baby girl, the Excelsior.

Tuvok served on the Excelsior nearly 80 years prior to serving on voyager?

If he's been in Starfleet for 80 years then why is he a damned Lt. Commander? Iveseen many ahuman reach a higher rank in a shorter amount of time. Does Tuvok have no ambition? Does he not have the qualifications? And as a Black Vulcan why does he not have the ability to manipulate electricity like his cartoon counterpart?

Im confused.

Darth Fanboy wrote:Tuvok served on the Excelsior nearly 80 years prior to serving on voyager?

If he's been in Starfleet for 80 years then why is he a damned Lt. Commander?

He dropped out of Starfleet for 51 years and when he came back he did nothing except teach at Starfleet Academy until four years prior to Voyager.

Google is your friend: Tuvok's Life Story

-- Joe Momma

Captain 'Hit Post Before Finishing His Reply' wrote:He dropped out of Starfleet for 51 years and when he came back he did nothing except teach at Starfleet Academy until four years prior to Voyager.

This doesn't change the fact that Tuvok's lazy or stupid, though. It apparently took him 18 years to climb up from Ensign to Lt j.g., which Geordi La Forge did in 6 years and then got a promotion a year for the next three years, netting four promotions (up to Lt. Commander) in half the time that it took Tuvok to get one. Worf only needed 10 years to get from Ensign to Lt. Commander as well. Data moved from Ensign to Lt. j.g. in 4 years and was a Lt. Commander at the 19 year mark.

To be fair, maybe Tuvok simply didn't seek out promotions because he was comfortable where he was at and didn't want to risk get reassigned if he moved up the ladder. Hell, it worked for Picard, who's been at the rank of Captain longer than Data's been alive (oops, I guess Data will never catch up now ).

-- Joe Momma

Okay so hes had a career of at least 39 years then without advancement to a higher rank, that still doesnt really answer my question. I especially a portion where he "dresses down" Janeway in front of three Admirals, if he is qualified to lecture a starship commander, one who made Captain at warp speed compared to Tuvoks lethargic career.

Darth Fanboy wrote:Okay so hes had a career of at least 39 years then without advancement to a higher rank, that still doesnt really answer my question.

Yeah. I haven't watched a lot of Voyager, but Tuvok never stuck out as a more of a total fuck-up or a complete moron than the rest of the crew. Not that he was exactly playing against the varsity there.

Hell, what are the possibilities?

1) He couldn't get promoted due to either A) lack of ability or B) extenuating circumstances (maybe promotions come a lot slower if you're a desk jockey, though that's still a long time not to move up).

2) He refused promotion for reasons unknown. We've seen captains refuse promotions to stay active in the field, for example. I can't imagine what benefit would accrue at remaining at Ensign or Lt. j.g., though.

3) He got promoted and then demoted, possibly repeatedly. God only knows what kind of hi-jinks would have occurred at his teaching post with the Academy for that have gone down.

Darth Fanboy wrote:I especially a portion where he "dresses down" Janeway in front of three Admirals, if he is qualified to lecture a starship commander, one who made Captain at warp speed compared to Tuvoks lethargic career.

Maybe this was the horrible Academy scandal where Tuvok got busted down a few ranks. Replace "dresses down" with "undresses" and let hilarity ensue.

I'm sure there's a perfectly good explanation for it all. It would be completely unlike B&B to have introduced such an unusual aspect to the character without it being firmly rooted in logic and continuity.

-- Joe Momma

Darth Fanboy wrote:A startling fact I have discovered for myself whilst looking up information on Sulu's baby girl, the Excelsior.

Tuvok served on the Excelsior nearly 80 years prior to serving on voyager?

If he's been in Starfleet for 80 years then why is he a damned Lt. Commander? Iveseen many ahuman reach a higher rank in a shorter amount of time. Does Tuvok have no ambition? Does he not have the qualifications? And as a Black Vulcan why does he not have the ability to manipulate electricity like his cartoon counterpart?

Im confused.

He left starfleet for about sixty years. And I don't know if security officers are eligible to become redshirts - just as certain Navy officers can't command a ship even if they become commanders or captains. Their jobs just don't lead to that - doctors or JAG officers, say.

And if the whole Federation is Communist like Earth, and there's no pay to factor into it, maybe there's really not much incentive to get promoted. Vulcans (Spock, T'Pol, etc.) in Starfleet seem to be far more patient about promotion, and of course this probably has something to do with their longevity - in cultural terms, maybe 100 years is to a Vulcan what 40 is to a human.

Metrion Cascade wrote:And if the whole Federation is Communist like Earth, and there's no pay to factor into it, maybe there's really not much incentive to get promoted. Vulcans (Spock, T'Pol, etc.) in Starfleet seem to be far more patient about promotion, and of course this probably has something to do with their longevity - in cultural terms, maybe 100 years is to a Vulcan what 40 is to a human.

I'd discount the communist factor of your argument- craving for promotion in the military is not restricted to capitalist governments where you get pay hikes. There are other forms of compensation- prestige, or something more simple- like better housing.

Vympel wrote:

Metrion Cascade wrote:And if the whole Federation is Communist like Earth, and there's no pay to factor into it, maybe there's really not much incentive to get promoted. Vulcans (Spock, T'Pol, etc.) in Starfleet seem to be far more patient about promotion, and of course this probably has something to do with their longevity - in cultural terms, maybe 100 years is to a Vulcan what 40 is to a human.

I'd discount the communist factor of your argument- craving for promotion in the military is not restricted to capitalist governments where you get pay hikes. There are other forms of compensation- prestige, or something more simple- like better housing.

But how concerned are Vulcans with prestige, and what is the relation between rank and housing? His family isn't in Starfleet (and lives on Vulcan), and I can find little difference qualitywise between his quarters and, say, Captain Janeway's. What housing would we be talking about?

Excuse me people, but the character Tim Russ played in "Generations" wasn't Tuvok. Here's how to tell: HE DOESN'T HAVE VULCAN EARS!"

The Kernel wrote:Excuse me people, but the character Tim Russ played in "Generations" wasn't Tuvok. Here's how to tell: HE DOESN'T HAVE VULCAN EARS!"

The 23rd century ship in Generations wasn't the Excelsior. It was the Enterprise-B. There is a Voyager episode concerning Tuvok's service on the Excelsior under Captain Sulu. That's what the OP is referring to.

Metrion Cascade wrote:

The Kernel wrote:Excuse me people, but the character Tim Russ played in "Generations" wasn't Tuvok. Here's how to tell: HE DOESN'T HAVE VULCAN EARS!"

The 23rd century ship in Generations wasn't the Excelsior. It was the Enterprise-B. There is a Voyager episode concerning Tuvok's service on the Excelsior under Captain Sulu. That's what the OP is referring to.

Ahhhh, thanks. I haven't seen much of Voyager and I wasn't sure what he was referring to.

Metrion Cascade wrote: He left starfleet for about sixty years. And I don't know if security officers are eligible to become redshirts - just as certain Navy officers can't command a ship even if they become commanders or captains.

Worf?

Joe Momma wrote:This doesn't change the fact that Tuvok's lazy or stupid, though. It apparently took him 18 years to climb up from Ensign to Lt j.g., which Geordi La Forge did in 6 years and then got a promotion a year for the next three years, netting four promotions (up to Lt. Commander) in half the time that it took Tuvok to get one. Worf only needed 10 years to get from Ensign to Lt. Commander as well. Data moved from Ensign to Lt. j.g. in 4 years and was a Lt. Commander at the 19 year mark.

To be fair, maybe Tuvok simply didn't seek out promotions because he was comfortable where he was at and didn't want to risk get reassigned if he moved up the ladder. Hell, it worked for Picard, who's been at the rank of Captain longer than Data's been alive (oops, I guess Data will never catch up now ).

-- Joe Momma

Er... I thought Data was Lieutenant Commander at the beginning... since I thought he had always been the third-in-command.

seanrobertson wrote:

Metrion Cascade wrote: He left starfleet for about sixty years. And I don't know if security officers are eligible to become redshirts - just as certain Navy officers can't command a ship even if they become commanders or captains.

Worf?

I forgot about him. I missed the last couple of seasons of DS9.

seanrobertson wrote:
Worf?

He transfered.

As for security advancement, lets hear from every body’s favourite turncoat.

EDDINGTON (Cont'd)
It's the Captain's Chair that everyone
has their eye on.
(a beat)
That's what I wanted when I joined
up. But you don't get to be a captain
wearing a gold uniform.

SISKO
You could always transfer from
Security to Command.

But Data and Laforge weren't in security, and they wore the gold uniforms.

Indeed, yellow-shirted Data was an acting captain in TNG.

Maybe it's a matter of not having completed the neccessary training to be command staff in an emergancy. IIRC in Rogue Saucer, and yeah i know it was a book, Beverlt Crusher was qualified to command a brige crew in an emergancy. Maybe Tuvok never completed those classes and as such didn't earn enough merit points to earn promotion.

Maybe it's species discrimination. For all the species diversity of the Federation Council, the crews of their ships still appear to be overwhelmingly human.

At one point in DS9, Sisko even refers to the entire Federation as the "human" side of the Dominion War.

Correct me if I'm wrong but dont both engineering and security have the gold shirts and science and medical both have blue (which is why voyager still had blues despite their total lack of a medical staff) and red is command and.....er.....whatever the hell it is they need the extras for.

Keevan_Colton wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but dont both engineering and security have the gold shirts and science and medical both have blue (which is why voyager still had blues despite their total lack of a medical staff) and red is command and.....er.....whatever the hell it is they need the extras for.

REd cant just be command though, otherwise why would ensigns wear it?

Yeah, but I'm not sure what the name for the category of "random person of no consequence save to be killed at some point" is apart from Redshirt.

I know it'd have to be command and something, I'm just unsure on the something.

As far as Tuvok and the "gold shirt" thing goes, it could also be due to Starfleet's PC stupidity. Perhaps since security is seen as a violent field, those that specialise solely in it are not fit for command, since after all the federation is totally opposed to violence etc....

Might also go a long way to explaining a lot of thier screw ups over the years....those specialsing in "tactics" and "strategy" arent allowed to call the shots.

Keevan_Colton wrote:As far as Tuvok and the "gold shirt" thing goes, it could also be due to Starfleet's PC stupidity. Perhaps since security is seen as a violent field, those that specialise solely in it are not fit for command, since after all the federation is totally opposed to violence etc....

Might also go a long way to explaining a lot of thier screw ups over the years....those specialsing in "tactics" and "strategy" arent allowed to call the shots.

Worf was promoted to Commander in DS9...