TNG Episode "Darmok"

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-10-22 07:28pm

The Tamarian ship abolutely kicks the crap out of the E-D in this episode. The one with Picard and the alien captain who speaks in Metaphors (Darmok and Gilad at Tanagra?) .

Riker is trying to take down the transporter scattering field the Tamarians (sp?) have up so that he can beam Picard up from the planet. The Enterprise fires phasers, Riker immediately orders the shields to be raised to full power. Right afterwards the Tamarian vessel fires its own weapons that take the forward shilds out completely as well as scoring a direct hit on one of the nacelles.

They fire again and Data states that they cannot survive another hit.

so if these aliens have ships with the firepower to easily take down a GCS then why are they not more of a power?

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-10-22 07:32pm

Probably because they've not found the right metaphor for imperialism...?

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-10-22 07:33pm

Ever seen Memento? Trekverse has problems with it's short term memory, it simply forgot the Tamarians after that episode as it does all aliens, phenomenas and invention of the week. Ever seen Memento?

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-10-22 07:35pm

Maybe they don't want to be. They could have advanced technology but don't want to conquer other worlds are expand very much.

Do we have an idea of how much territory they possess?

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-10-22 07:43pm

Not really, but this is the second example in the last couple of weeks where one-episode civilizations of supposedly minor importance have had the means to kick the shit out of a Galaxy Class Starship. the Zalkonians I mentioned in a previous thread not only had that ChokeDevice/Plot Device but their ship had equal weaponry and defenses to the E-D. Then theres the Tamarians and their ship (which didnt look too bad by ST standards either) which pretty much sodomize E-D.

It just seems to me like the UFP is a regional power in size only, technology-wise they dont seem as special as one might think.

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2003-10-22 07:59pm

Well I think the E-D could have probably won in a straight up fight using photons and phasers.

The main problem with TNG was the pathetic military use of the ship. Its not that the technology for destruction wasnt there. They would sit back and let their shields get pounded only firing a shot every now and then. If they opened up with a withering barage of phaser fire and photons they probably could have been much more effective.

Besides, the pre-dominion war Galaxys weren't much of a warship, relying more on shields than anything else. The Defiants, Sovereigns, refit Galaxys, Akiras etc were much more fearsome.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-10-22 08:20pm

Admiral_K wrote:Well I think the E-D could have probably won in a straight up fight using photons and phasers.

The E-D attacked first, even with the first Strike and shields up they were all but defeated before their counterattack.

The main problem with TNG was the pathetic military use of the ship. Its not that the technology for destruction wasnt there. They would sit back and let their shields get pounded only firing a shot every now and then. If they opened up with a withering barage of phaser fire and photons they probably could have been much more effective.

The GCS was the premiere Federation Warship of the time when this takes place, and the GCS is still the standard in combat by the time of the Dominion war.

The E-D fires first in order to eliminate the scattering field, then raises full shields, Now the alien vessel knocked out the E-Ds forward shield, hit the nacelle, and reuced srrength in the remaining shields with but a short burst of fire. Enterprise was no match.

Besides, the pre-dominion war Galaxys weren't much of a warship, relying more on shields than anything else. The Defiants, Sovereigns, refit Galaxys, Akiras etc were much more fearsome.

In Trek Terms, at the time period prior to the Dominion War, the Galaxy Class Ship was one of the most powerful designs in the AQ. Now if you want to substitue an upgraded GCS in this battle then in fairness you should give the other side the same opportunity to upgrade.

Dennis Toy · Post by **Dennis Toy** » 2003-10-23 12:45am

why does everyone refer to the Enterprise-D as a "warship", Gene Roddenberry said it himself Starfleet is not a war -based organization

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-10-23 12:56am

1. Because it is used as a warship.
2. Because it is heavily armed.
3. Because it is controlled by a paramilitary organization.

Dennis Toy · Post by **Dennis Toy** » 2003-10-23 01:02am

it is heavily armed to protect itself and its people on board

starfleet is NOT military

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-10-23 01:04am

Dennis Toy wrote:why does everyone refer to the Enterprise-D as a "warship", Gene Roddenberry said it himself Starfleet is not a war -based organization

by that Logic the Defiant, Akira, and Prometheus Class and any other Starfleet vessel have no military purposes.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-10-23 01:10am

Dennis Toy wrote:it is heavily armed to protect itself and its people on board

No, it is armed and equipped to fight the Federation's wars, and is sent on military missions.

starfleet is NOT military

Uh huh... And what were they doing at Galorndon Cor, Nelvana III, the MacAllistar C5 Nebula, and several other locations involving military activities?

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-10-23 01:16am

Okay I might give you partial benefit of the doubt, but you have to answer this question:

If Starfleet IS NOT a Military or Paramilitary organization then what are they, why have they been fighting wars on Earth's Behalf since the days of James Kirk and why is their command structure similar to that of a military organization?

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-10-23 02:41am

Dennis Toy wrote:it is heavily armed to protect itself and its people on board

starfleet is NOT military

Oh, thats why GCSs have been sent on offensive operations in the Dominion War, and why GCSs have been sent on other offensive military missions.

Color me unimpressed by your tremendous argument

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2003-10-23 05:31am

Maybe Starfleet is part of the Department of Transportation like the US Coast Guard?

That means they'd kind of float the line between military and cops while not officially being either, which sort of fits with Starfleet most of the time.

Old Plympto · Post by **Old Plympto** » 2003-10-23 09:35am

Isn't Darmok the episode where the E-D fires phaser beams out of its neck-section torpedo tubes? (An FX gaffe)

Bertie Wooster · Post by **Bertie Wooster** » 2003-10-23 10:03am

I think the reason the Tamarians aren't more of a regional power is that they aren't expansionist like the Klingons or Federation, nor had they pursued diplomatic relations with other powers up to that episode.

Their poor communication ability probably precluded them from engaging in trade with other economies.

Another example of a species seemingly more advanced than the Federation, yet a non-player in regional politics are the Sheliak.

Another possibility is that the Tamarians do control an extensive territory like the tholians are shown to in Star Trek - Star Charts, yet like the Tholians, the Tamarians are isolationist at the same time. The interstellar neighborhood in Star Trek is not that big, and there could be hundreds of other poltical enitities much more powerful than the Federation that simply aren't involved in that region.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-10-23 10:44am

Old Plympto wrote:Isn't Darmok the episode where the E-D fires phaser beams out of its neck-section torpedo tubes? (An FX gaffe)

Yes, yes it is.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-10-23 11:12am

That episode was so stupid. Think about it for a second. How could any civilization get by on using metaphors for everything?!

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-10-23 12:05pm

Vympel wrote:That episode was so stupid. Think about it for a second. How could any civilization get by on using metaphors for everything?!

It's a ridiculous concept, really.

Think about it; how do you teach someone the stories involving all these mythical figures if you can't actually tell the stories? Supposedly their entire communication system is based on references, but people can't understand those references until you tell them what they mean.

How do you relate new concepts?
How do you refer to specific modern people or events, especially those without a historical/mythical precedent?

Even the Tamarian captain had to basically improvise a standard grammatical system to relate one simple story to Picard to explain what he was trying to do.

"Darmok and Gilad at Tanagra"... we know the basic story was that Darmok and Gilad independently arrived at an island, had to work together to defeat some monster there, and then left together, but that phrase could refer to any part of that story. Their "language" has no specificity.

Major absurdity.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-10-23 12:06pm

Another example of a species seemingly more advanced than the Federation, yet a non-player in regional politics are the Sheliak.

What gives you the impression the Sheliak are more advanced than the Feds?

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-10-23 12:22pm

TheDarkling wrote:What gives you the impression the Sheliak are more advanced than the Feds?

Well, for starters, they apparently don't suffer massive technology failures in the presence of "hyperonic radiation".

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-10-23 02:33pm

Ted C wrote:
TheDarkling wrote:What gives you the impression the Sheliak are more advanced than the Feds?
Well, for starters, they apparently don't suffer massive technology failures in the presence of "hyperonic radiation".

Data was able to repair his Phaser in a few minutes and we have no proof they could use their transporters, what other technology was vulnerable to hyperonic radiation?

Not to mention that they could be used to dealing with that radiation because their colonies can be placed on worlds affected by it unlike the Feds who die from it (unless you develop magical radiation invulnerability).

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-10-23 03:41pm

TheDarkling wrote:Data was able to repair his Phaser in a few minutes...

True enough. Of course, he had to use some of his own "neural subprocessors" to accomplish it, not exactly a common bit of tech in the Federation. I think it's reasonable to assume that Sheliak weapons are already capable of handling the "hyperonic radiation", which means that "neural subprocessor" technology is widely available to them.

TheDarkling wrote:... and we have no proof they could use their transporters,

I suppose it's possible that the Sheliak were planning to colonize a planet on which they would be unable to use transporters, forcing them to continuously use shuttles or other landing craft whenever someone arrived or needed to leave. "Ensigns of Command" suggests that a round trip flight from an orbiting ship to the surface of the planet could take hours.

You may want to recall the following exchange from the end of the episode...

GEORDI: Captain, we can do it! We can modify the transporters.
PICARD: Excellent.
GEORDI: It'll take fifteen years, and a research team of a hundred --

This would suggest that 1) the Sheliak may well have transporters capable of operating in the presence of "hyperonic radiation" and 2) that Sheliak transporter technology would therefore be at least 15 years ahead of Federation transporter technology.

TheDarkling wrote: what other technology was vulnerable to hyperonic radiation?

Sensors were also negatively affected, making it impossible to determine how many human colonists were living on Tau Cygna Five. Data couldn't report their numbers until he'd landed on the planet and contacted them.

TheDarkling wrote:Not to mention that they could be used to dealing with that radiation because their colonies can be placed on worlds affected by it unlike the Feds who die from it (unless you develop magical radiation invulnerability).

Of course, this "hyperonic radiation" can't be terribly destructive if a poorly equipped colony can quickly find a way to "adapt" to it.

Another point of Sheliak superiority; apparently they have no trouble understanding and speaking various Federation languages, but the Federation is incapable of translating the Sheliak language.

Bertie Wooster · Post by **Bertie Wooster** » 2003-10-23 03:43pm

Darkling:

You and TedC remember more about that episode than myself. I haven't seen it in 10 years but I remember that the Sheliak acted haughty and Picard&co. had to make a temporary upgrade to their comm system to posture in their negotiations with the Sheliak. Why would Picard need to posture with the Sheliak if the feds were an obvious technological superior of the Sheliak? Thats why I said the Sheliak were seemingly more advanced than the feds.