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It is strange that the Dominion war was never mentioned in Voyger even after Barclay contacted Voyger. The Doctor made several trips to the alpha quadrant and even he never talked about the Dominion.

It is very unusual since with a large war raging back home in the alpha quadrant Voygers crew choses to remain silent on the issue. Many of Voygers crew may have friends and family in StarFleet and they should have expressed concern for their loved ones after hearing news of so many ships being destroyed in battle.

The same goes for battle of Sector 001 and the Klingon-Cardassian hostility and Klingon attack on DS9. None of these important events were mentioned in Voyger.

So why has B & B chosen to overlook such an important matter ?

Wasn't there an epiosde dealing with the Maquis crew members reaction to the death of the Maqui in the Dominion war or was that episode merely about Torres' Klingon PMS??

In that episode 'Message in a Bottle' where the doctor goes to the Prometheus, the other EMH tell him about the Dominion. The doctor says "What's that?" and that was it. That's the only Dominion reference I can remember in VOY.

Stravo wrote:Wasn't there an epiosde dealing with the Maquis crew members reaction to the death of the Maqui in the Dominion war or was that episode merely about Torres' Klingon PMS??

I remember some of the Maquis speaking about all their friends being dead already because the Dominion whiped them out.

You know what's really odd? There was an episode in the first season (IIRC) where Kes was with Tom in the holodeck, training to pilot a shuttle. One of the sims was an attack on the shuttle by a pair of Jem'hadar attack fighters. I may be wrong, but the Federation did not have any knowledge of the Dominion at the time Voyager went missing, didn't it?

Agent R wrote:You know what's really odd? There was an episode in the first season (IIRC) where Kes was with Tom in the holodeck, training to pilot a shuttle. One of the sims was an attack on the shuttle by a pair of Jem'hadar attack fighters. I may be wrong, but the Federation did not have any knowledge of the Dominion at the time Voyager went missing, didn't it?

Hi.

R, are you sure the simulation depicted Jem'Hadar attack ships? I honestly do not remember that incident, and I suffered through quite a bit of Voyager shudder.

I'm pretty sure that VGR had some cursory knowledge of the Dominion at that point, though. The Odyssey was supposedly destroyed in 2370, but VGR didn't launch 'til sometime in 2371.

Back to the thread topic, and as others have already said, I do know that the holographic doctor learned about the Dominion War in "Message In a Bottle." He had no clue who they were: "The who?!"

As Stravo and Tsyroc noted, another episode dealt with Torres' reaction to news that the Jem'Hadar had annihilated the Maquis. She said something [very close to] the effect that, "Aliens from the Gamma Quadrant gave the Cardassians weapons."

That's not too problematic. The doctor didn't need to know about Alpha Quadrant events immediately leading up to VGR's jaunt to the Delta Quadrant. Torres or Chakotay wouldn't know about the Dominion either; they were in the Maquis when the Odyssey had her ass delivered to her on a shiny silver plate.

seanrobertson wrote:

Agent R wrote:You know what's really odd? There was an episode in the first season (IIRC) where Kes was with Tom in the holodeck, training to pilot a shuttle. One of the sims was an attack on the shuttle by a pair of Jem'hadar attack fighters. I may be wrong, but the Federation did not have any knowledge of the Dominion at the time Voyager went missing, didn't it?

Hi.

R, are you sure the simulation depicted Jem'Hadar attack ships? I honestly do not remember that incident, and I suffered through quite a bit of Voyager shudder.

Absolute certainty is never a guarantee....

...but those ships did bear an awful resemblance to them. I observed them from a head-on profile, approaching the holo-shuttle. Coloring was similar, and weapon fire came from an aperture that was located right down the middle.

If anyone remembers the episode and the scene I'm talking about, you mind helping out?

Isn't the real reason behind the scene politics between B&B and Moore?

I remember a simulation where Voyager is attacked by a group of Ferengi vessels, but not by any Dominion vessels. The only reference to the Dominion that I remember is the one where they talk about the death of the Maquis.

Agent R wrote: ...but those ships did bear an awful resemblance to them. I observed them from a head-on profile, approaching the holo-shuttle. Coloring was similar, and weapon fire came from an aperture that was located right down the middle.

If anyone remembers the episode and the scene I'm talking about, you mind helping out?

Those were Jem'Hadar fighters alright. I thought that was odd indeed.

Dark Primus wrote:

Agent R wrote: ...but those ships did bear an awful resemblance to them. I observed them from a head-on profile, approaching the holo-shuttle. Coloring was similar, and weapon fire came from an aperture that was located right down the middle.

If anyone remembers the episode and the scene I'm talking about, you mind helping out?

Those were Jem'Hadar fighters alright. I thought that was odd indeed.

That's good enough for me. Do you fellas remember which episode this was? "Tom and Kes in a shuttle" is a good start, but I'm not sure Google will turn up much on that alone

It needn't be too unusual, though. VGR was fresh out of drydock when she was lost in the Delta Quadrant. The Odyssey incident might've happened as much as 6-9 months beforehand, but if Starfleet kept a relatively tight lid on the disaster, Maquis like Chakotay or Torres needn't know of the Dominion threat.

seanrobertson wrote:
That's good enough for me. Do you fellas remember which episode this was? "Tom and Kes in a shuttle" is a good start, but I'm not sure Google will turn up much on that alone

It needn't be too unusual, though. VGR was fresh out of drydock when she was lost in the Delta Quadrant. The Odyssey incident might've happened as much as 6-9 months beforehand, but if Starfleet kept a relatively tight lid on the disaster, Maquis like Chakotay or Torres needn't know of the Dominion threat.

They were Jemmies and the epsiode name was in season 2 and was called "Parturition".

As for them knowing about the Dominion, nope that's not possible. When Chakotay (or whatever the fuck his name is) found out about the Dominion War, he told Torres something along the lines of "Some new race from the Gamma Quadrent has allied with the Cardassians...". Doesn't sound like they knew them to me.

evilcat4000 wrote:Voyger.

So why has B & B chosen to overlook such an important matter ?

Because they don't care about contunity.

The Kernel wrote: They were Jemmies and the epsiode name was in season 2 and was called "Parturition".

As for them knowing about the Dominion, nope that's not possible. When Chakotay (or whatever the fuck his name is) found out about the Dominion War, he told Torres something along the lines of "Some new race from the Gamma Quadrent has allied with the Cardassians...". Doesn't sound like they knew them to me.

This is frustrating. Did you not read my post? Was what I said just beneath contempt, so irrational you don't even think it's worth answering--in your opinion, of course?

I ask because I already noted the "aliens from the Gamma Quadrant gave the Cardassians weapons" line. And I've twice said why Torres or Chakotay wouldn't know dick about the Dominion, too, yet you're quoting that pair to [try and] tell me I'm wrong.

I'll say it a third time: Chakotay and Torres were in the Maquis when the Odyssey was destroyed (read: when the Federation first realized that the Dominion posed a very real threat). Since you're not even sure of Chakotay's aka "Mr. Whatever The Fuck's" name, I take it you're relatively unfamiliar with VGR.

However did you remember the visuals and name of a specific VGR episode, I wonder? (As should be obvious, that's a joke. I realize you're just poking fun at Cacahaute.)

Judging by things you've said elsewhere in the forum you are, however, familiar with DS9. Consequently, you know that the Maquis is considered a terrorist organization by Starfleet Command.

Well, I rather doubt Starfleet would've widely publicized the exact circumstances under which they lost a flagship--certainly not to Maquis terrorists or those outside the Federation.

Therefore, before Chakotay's ship was sucked into the Delta Quadrant, the Dominion would've remained a vague rumor to the Maquis, a fuzzy potential problem at worst.

On the other hand, how could Voyager's Starfleet crew NOT know about the Dominion?

As previously noted, the events of "The Jem'Hadar" took place many months before VGR was lost. Don't you think the circumstances surrounding the loss of a flagship would be something of which the fleet's COs should be made aware?

I do.

Janeway would've been briefed on that kind of threat. Her first mission took her to the Bajor Sector, home to the wormhole and effectively next door to these powerful Jem'Hadar. There's every reason to appraise Janeway of the goings-on in that area of space, especially since VGR might've spent quite some time in the area after Chakotay's ship was apprehended.

One other thing:

You'll note that none of VGR's SF personnel ever verbalized their ignorance of the Dominion. Did Janeway say, "Jem'Ha-WHO?" No. Did Tuvok or Kim claim they'd never heard of the Dominion? No.

So far as we can confirm, only the doctor didn't know what the Dominion was, but why should he? He's a hologram, originally regarded as an automaton, a short-term measure. They never intended for him to become "alive"...filling his programming with lots of vague data on Jem'Hadar would serve NO purpose.

All that's really beside the point. You, Primus and R say we saw Jem'Hadar ships in "Parturition"?

Ok then: someone on VGR obviously knew about the Jem'Hadar or, if nothing else, the computer had some information about the Dominion.

Why? Simple...how else did Jem'Hadar ships find their way into Voyager's holodeck programs?!?!

"Shitty writing" is no kind of answer; the show could be something less than nothing, but I don't apply a certain method of analysis only when I like the subject matter. Like it or lump it, my approach remains the same.

As it stands I don't see anything even close to a contradiction.

The Dominion were known as a potential threat to the Federation by the time the Voyager was lost in the Delta Quadrant, and no doubt information on Jem'hadar attack ships was recorded from the attacks on both the Odyssey and the Defiant ("The Jem'hadar", "The Search{1}"). So it is likely that scans and performance data on these craft were added to Starfleet's ship-recognition files and would have been transmitted to all commands at that time.

seanrobertson wrote: This is frustrating. Did you not read my post? Was what I said just beneath contempt, so irrational you don't even think it's worth answering--in your opinion, of course?

Whoa Nelly! Don't get all amped up yet. Let me explain.

I ask because I already noted the "aliens from the Gamma Quadrant gave the Cardassians weapons" line. And I've twice said why Torres or Chakotay wouldn't know dick about the Dominion, too, yet you're quoting that pair to [try and] tell me I'm wrong.

I'll say it a third time: Chakotay and Torres were in the Maquis when the Odyssey was destroyed (read: when the Federation first realized that the Dominion posed a very real threat). Since you're not even sure of Chakotay's aka "Mr. Whatever The Fuck's" name, I take it you're relatively unfamiliar with VGR.

It seems unlikely that the Maquis would be unaware of a hostile threat that attacked and destroyed both a Galaxy-class starship (think about someone on Earth not hearing about the loss of a Nimitz-class carrier and you'll get the idea) AND a Bajoran colony on the other side of the wormhole (you think the Bajoran's in the Maquis might have heard about this?).

However did you remember the visuals and name of a specific VGR episode, I wonder? (As should be obvious, that's a joke. I realize you're just poking fun at Cacahaute.)

Actually, it is something of a coincidence. I doubt I've seen more then a dozen episodes of Voyager. And yes, I was poking fun at Mr. Politically Correct Native American.

Judging by things you've said elsewhere in the forum you are, however, familiar with DS9. Consequently, you know that the Maquis is considered a terrorist organization by Starfleet Command.

Well, I rather doubt Starfleet would've widely publicized the exact circumstances under which they lost a flagship--certainly not to Maquis terrorists or those outside the Federation.

You think they could cover up a loss like this? The whole Federation was blazing with the threat of the Dominion in the next season. I doubt they were trying to keep it a secret. Besides, AN ENTIRE WORLD WAS LOST.

Therefore, before Chakotay's ship was sucked into the Delta Quadrant, the Dominion would've remained a vague rumor to the Maquis, a fuzzy potential problem at worst.

Hard to believe given the Bajoran planet that was destroyed.

On the other hand, how could Voyager's Starfleet crew NOT know about the Dominion?

As previously noted, the events of "The Jem'Hadar" took place many months before VGR was lost. Don't you think the circumstances surrounding the loss of a flagship would be something of which the fleet's COs should be made aware?

I do.

I'm sure that they should have. It's a blooper in my mind, since apparently they didn't.

Janeway would've been briefed on that kind of threat. Her first mission took her to the Bajor Sector, home to the wormhole and effectively next door to these powerful Jem'Hadar. There's every reason to appraise Janeway of the goings-on in that area of space, especially since VGR might've spent quite some time in the area after Chakotay's ship was apprehended.

One other thing:

You'll note that none of VGR's SF personnel ever verbalized their ignorance of the Dominion. Did Janeway say, "Jem'Ha-WHO?" No. Did Tuvok or Kim claim they'd never heard of the Dominion? No.

Did they ever verbalize that the recognized the Dominion? Also, don't you think that the Maquis on Voyager would have been made aware of the Dominion? They were on board for a long time before Chakotay made his little speech to Torres (or the Klingon bitch that won't die).

So far as we can confirm, only the doctor didn't know what the Dominion was, but why should he? He's a hologram, originally regarded as an automaton, a short-term measure. They never intended for him to become "alive"...filling his programming with lots of vague data on Jem'Hadar would serve NO purpose.

Ummm...he is hooked into the ships database right?

All that's really beside the point. You, Primus and R say we saw Jem'Hadar ships in "Parturition"?

Ok then: someone on VGR obviously knew about the Jem'Hadar or, if nothing else, the computer had some information about the Dominion.

Why? Simple...how else did Jem'Hadar ships find their way into Voyager's holodeck programs?!?!

"Shitty writing" is no kind of answer; the show could be something less than nothing, but I don't apply a certain method of analysis only when I like the subject matter. Like it or lump it, my approach remains the same.

As it stands I don't see anything even close to a contradiction.

Your right, shitty writing isn't an answer from a suspension-of-disbelief perspective. So how about the answer that satisfies eh? Chakotay is an ignorant twad, Torres is an ignorant slut and the rest of Voyager is nearly brain dead (no doubt from eating food laced with Neelix spoogie). That is the in-universe answer.

As for the real answer, Voyager's writers are complete and utter morons.

The Kernel wrote: Whoa Nelly! Don't get all amped up yet. Let me explain.

Heh, I was pulling your leg a bit there, trying to guarantee you'd hear me out (I should apologize for that...from what I've seen you're a good guy, and a good addition to SD.net. You deserve better.)

That sappy-sounding stuff aside...

It seems unlikely that the Maquis would be unaware of a hostile threat that attacked and destroyed both a Galaxy-class starship (think about someone on Earth not hearing about the loss of a Nimitz-class carrier and you'll get the idea) AND a Bajoran colony on the other side of the wormhole (you think the Bajoran's in the Maquis might have heard about this?).

Sure, if Chakotay's cell wasn't deep in hiding, they might've heard something about the Odyssey or New Bajor incidents. I cannot deny that.

At the risk of sounding glib, however, so what? That's not the crux of the issue...even if they caught a blurb about the Dominion, Jem'Hadar or both, why are we faced with a contradiction?

Is it because of something like this?

P1--Chakotay and/or Torres spoke about "aliens from the Gamma Quadrant."

*P2--Refering to "aliens" suggests one or both characters cannot ascribe a proper name to the subject (which we know to be the Dominion).

C1--Therefore, the two are not familiar with the Dominion.

(Quick note: if you think I'm straw-manning you, please say so now.)

Note the star before the second premise. I've denoted it because I think it's a false dichotomy, an illicit "either/or" argument.

Simply, why does Chakotay's knowledge of the Dominion hinge on his specificity? If I say I have a pest or "bug" problem, does that mean I don't know what kind of bugs w/ which my house is infested?

Also implicit to your position is the following:

P1--If Chakotay and/or Torres heard about the Odyssey or New Bajor before they were lost in the DQ, then they must know who was responsible for those attacks.

P2--The Dominion was responsible.

C2: Therefore, the two should call the Dominion by name.

This is at least two false dichotomies in one. Why would they necessarily know who blew up the GCS or the colony?

Would they necessarily make the connection between 6 year-old attacks and news of the Maquis' murderers?

The bottom line is, Chakotay or Torres' lines aren't a condemnation of interseries continuity in and of themselves. Some have interpreted them that way, but that brings us to a whole other problem, that of approach. I'll talk about it later.

You think they could cover up a loss like this? The whole Federation was blazing with the threat of the Dominion in the next season. I doubt they were trying to keep it a secret. Besides, AN ENTIRE WORLD WAS LOST.

Entire world is a big stretch; I've not heard anything to suggest that the colony was large at all.

I'd also say it's somewhat of an exaggeration to say that, throughout season 3, the entire Federation was up in arms about the Dominion. DS9 was given Defiant, a tough gal but relatively unproven and, at the end of the day, still only one ship.

I dunno that I'd call that level of preparation blazing, nor would I say that DS9's preparation is at all indicative of the entire Federation's (a hasty generalization).

As such, the "cover-up" wouldn't be as difficult as you indicate, but I never said a cover-up was necessary--just that it's not the sort of thing that'd be widely publicized for no good reason.

But for the sake of this argument, let's say it was common knowledge that the Jem'Hadar blew up the Odyssey. Chakotay first heard the name from a Bolian fur trader *shrug*, and during a visit with other Maquis leaders, he overheard Eddington describe how polaron beams would go right through Federation shields, that the Jem'Hadar look like alligators, and some other such details.

That's all well and good, but how does it prove a contradiction again? Because he used the vague term "aliens" when he could have said "Dominion"?

That's pretty thin.

Hard to believe given the Bajoran planet that was destroyed.

Correction: a colony was destroyed and again, frankly, so what?

So they might've heard about it. That doesn't prove anything, and remains a mere "likelihood" at that. For a contradiction we need something firm.

Did they ever verbalize that the recognized the Dominion? Also, don't you think that the Maquis on Voyager would have been made aware of the Dominion? They were on board for a long time before Chakotay made his little speech to Torres (or the Klingon bitch that won't die).

I don't recall that any proper Starfleet officer on Voyager mentioned their familiarity with the Dominion--the opportunity didn't present itself--but I say again, that holoprogram had to come from somewhere...

And actually no, I don't there's much reason the Dominion would be discussed onboard VGR seasons 1-6. They had their hands full from day one...why talk about an ill-understand political body that's half a galaxy away?

Ummm...he is hooked into the ships database right?

If he did have access to the entire database, why assume he must be familiar with all of it? That's a leap in logic, and a first for any Starfleet officer I've heard about. Even Data routinely had to perform lengthy searches on the E-D's computer, demonstrating its storage capacity was well beyond his own.

Your right, shitty writing isn't an answer from a suspension-of-disbelief perspective. So how about the answer that satisfies eh? Chakotay is an ignorant twad, Torres is an ignorant slut and the rest of Voyager is nearly brain dead (no doubt from eating food laced with Neelix spoogie). That is the in-universe answer.

Why even go that far? Jokes about Neelix's spunk aside (uggggh!, LOL), I wouldn't necessarily call them brain dead, stupid or ignorant based on those lines. I think you're trying to make something from almost nothing.

As for the real answer, Voyager's writers are complete and utter morons.

They would've been smart to include a throw-away line about the Dominion I guess, but consideration of the writers is incompatible with my approach.

My approach dictates that I look at the facts, which are as follows:

--The Jem'Hadar destroyed several ships, Odyssey included, and New Bajor several months before Voyager's maiden voyage.

--Simulated Jem'Hadar attack ships appeared in VGR season two's "Parturition."

--Chakotay (or Torres, or both) don't refer to the Dominion by name. They call them "aliens from the Gamma Quadrant."

--The Holodoctor says, "The who?" when Andy Dick's newer Holodoc informs him, "They've [the Romulans] haven't gotten involved in our fight with the Dominion."

I then rationalize those facts in an "in-continuty" theory for consistency's sake; invocation of bad writing is stepping outside the continuity, effectively "invoking God" as I like to say.

My theory is as follows: someone on VGR, or who at least initially uploaded shit into VGR's computer in drydock, knew a little about the Jem'Hadar and Dominion from day one, programming the holodeck with a simulation of Jem'Hadar attack ships.

The doctor, who might have access to the ship's databanks, simply never researched the Dominion--he had no need to. His confusion is thus understandable.

Chakotay and Torres, who were in the Maquis when the Dominion threat emerged, knew very little about them before they were stranded in the Delta Quadrant. Likely in near shock at the news of the Maquis' destruction, they weren't very doggone precise about who was massacring their comrades, preferring instead to largely blame their hated nemeses (and equally guilty accomplises), the Cardassians.

Where am I going wrong? That fits all the facts at hand, and requires no incredible stretches to do so IMO.

seanrobertson wrote:
Heh, I was pulling your leg a bit there, trying to guarantee you'd hear me out (I should apologize for that...from what I've seen you're a good guy, and a good addition to SD.net. You deserve better.)

That sappy-sounding stuff aside...

Thanks. Actually, I had only skimmed your post with the Chakotay quote at the time, so I must have missed it.

Sure, if Chakotay's cell wasn't deep in hiding, they might've heard something about the Odyssey or New Bajor incidents. I cannot deny that.

At the risk of sounding glib, however, so what? That's not the crux of the issue...even if they caught a blurb about the Dominion, Jem'Hadar or both, why are we faced with a contradiction?

Bajorans make up a great portion of the Maquis. Because of this they should have been aware of the destruction of one of Bajor's handful of colonies and it would be big news to the Maquis. However, you do have a point about them being in hiding.

Is it because of something like this?

P1--Chakotay and/or Torres spoke about "aliens from the Gamma Quadrant."

*P2--Refering to "aliens" suggests one or both characters cannot ascribe a proper name to the subject (which we know to be the Dominion).

C1--Therefore, the two are not familiar with the Dominion.

(Quick note: if you think I'm straw-manning you, please say so now.)

Nope, I think you pegged it just fine.

Note the star before the second premise. I've denoted it because I think it's a false dichotomy, an illicit "either/or" argument.

Simply, why does Chakotay's knowledge of the Dominion hinge on his specificity? If I say I have a pest or "bug" problem, does that mean I don't know what kind of bugs w/ which my house is infested?

The Dominion was a recognized threat to the Federation at the time Voyager was lost according to the timeline. Because of this, and the fact that they seemingly knew them well enough to be a popular craft for use in holodeck flight simulations, you would think that Chakotay would have become familiar with them.

Also implicit to your position is the following:

P1--If Chakotay and/or Torres heard about the Odyssey or New Bajor before they were lost in the DQ, then they must know who was responsible for those attacks.

P2--The Dominion was responsible.

C2: Therefore, the two should call the Dominion by name.

This is at least two false dichotomies in one. Why would they necessarily know who blew up the GCS or the colony?

Because the Maquis have a vested interest in Bajor with so many of their members being Bajor ex-resistance fighters. Chakotay should have at least MENTIONED that these were the same guys who torched New Bajor.

Would they necessarily make the connection between 6 year-old attacks and news of the Maquis' murderers?

The bottom line is, Chakotay or Torres' lines aren't a condemnation of interseries continuity in and of themselves. Some have interpreted them that way, but that brings us to a whole other problem, that of approach. I'll talk about it later.

Your correct, it isn't a direct contradiction. I suppose I was a little hasty in my first statement in assuming so. However, I do believe that they are both brain dead for not making the connection ESPECIALLY since the message Chakotay recieved obviously mentioned them by name.

Entire world is a big stretch; I've not heard anything to suggest that the colony was large at all.

I'd also say it's somewhat of an exaggeration to say that, throughout season 3, the entire Federation was up in arms about the Dominion. DS9 was given Defiant, a tough gal but relatively unproven and, at the end of the day, still only one ship.

They also saw fit to heavily upgrade DS9's defenses (a distinctly un-Starfleet action) and withdraw almost all trafic to and from the Gamma Quadrent. You don't think the civilian population of the Federation and her neighbors were wondering about this?

I dunno that I'd call that level of preparation blazing, nor would I say that DS9's preparation is at all indicative of the entire Federation's (a hasty generalization).

As such, the "cover-up" wouldn't be as difficult as you indicate, but I never said a cover-up was necessary--just that it's not the sort of thing that'd be widely publicized for no good reason.

A Federation top-of-the-line cruiser was lost with all hands (aside from the non-essential personal that were left at DS9) during peacetime. Do you have any idea how the press would eat this up today? Remember how much press the USS Cole bombing got? And that was a small ship that wasn't even sunk. This kind of news would send shockwaves through the Federation.

But for the sake of this argument, let's say it was common knowledge that the Jem'Hadar blew up the Odyssey. Chakotay first heard the name from a Bolian fur trader *shrug*, and during a visit with other Maquis leaders, he overheard Eddington describe how polaron beams would go right through Federation shields, that the Jem'Hadar look like alligators, and some other such details.

That's all well and good, but how does it prove a contradiction again? Because he used the vague term "aliens" when he could have said "Dominion"?

If you listen to the way Chakotay says his line, it is pretty clear from the intonations in his voice that he has no idea who these people were. I know this is subjective, but try to watch the episode if you can and decide.

Correction: a colony was destroyed and again, frankly, so what?

So they might've heard about it. That doesn't prove anything, and remains a mere "likelihood" at that. For a contradiction we need something firm.

It's just another piece of evidence given their closeness with the Bajoran people, who were probably terrified by the loss of one of their colonies.

I don't recall that any proper Starfleet officer on Voyager mentioned their familiarity with the Dominion--the opportunity didn't present itself--but I say again, that holoprogram had to come from somewhere...

And actually no, I don't there's much reason the Dominion would be discussed onboard VGR seasons 1-6. They had their hands full from day one...why talk about an ill-understand political body that's half a galaxy away?

Point.

If he did have access to the entire database, why assume he must be familiar with all of it? That's a leap in logic, and a first for any Starfleet officer I've heard about. Even Data routinely had to perform lengthy searches on the E-D's computer, demonstrating its storage capacity was well beyond his own.

Strangely enough, since he was connected to the Prometheus database when he learned of it, he should have instantly known the answer But I'll digress...

Why even go that far? Jokes about Neelix's spunk aside (uggggh!, LOL), I wouldn't necessarily call them brain dead, stupid or ignorant based on those lines. I think you're trying to make something from almost nothing.

I guess my hate for Voyager is just shining through. So sorry.

They would've been smart to include a throw-away line about the Dominion I guess, but consideration of the writers is incompatible with my approach.

Unfortunately, smart isn't something I associate with the Voyager writers.

seanrobertson wrote:
Heh, I was pulling your leg a bit there, trying to guarantee you'd hear me out (I should apologize for that...from what I've seen you're a good guy, and a good addition to SD.net. You deserve better.)

That sappy-sounding stuff aside...

Thanks. Actually, I had only skimmed your post with the Chakotay quote at the time, so I must have missed it.

Sure, if Chakotay's cell wasn't deep in hiding, they might've heard something about the Odyssey or New Bajor incidents. I cannot deny that.

At the risk of sounding glib, however, so what? That's not the crux of the issue...even if they caught a blurb about the Dominion, Jem'Hadar or both, why are we faced with a contradiction?

Bajorans make up a great portion of the Maquis. Because of this they should have been aware of the destruction of one of Bajor's handful of colonies and it would be big news to the Maquis. However, you do have a point about them being in hiding.

Is it because of something like this?

P1--Chakotay and/or Torres spoke about "aliens from the Gamma Quadrant."

*P2--Refering to "aliens" suggests one or both characters cannot ascribe a proper name to the subject (which we know to be the Dominion).

C1--Therefore, the two are not familiar with the Dominion.

(Quick note: if you think I'm straw-manning you, please say so now.)

Nope, I think you pegged it just fine.

Note the star before the second premise. I've denoted it because I think it's a false dichotomy, an illicit "either/or" argument.

Simply, why does Chakotay's knowledge of the Dominion hinge on his specificity? If I say I have a pest or "bug" problem, does that mean I don't know what kind of bugs w/ which my house is infested?

The Dominion was a recognized threat to the Federation at the time Voyager was lost according to the timeline. Because of this, and the fact that they seemingly knew them well enough to be a popular craft for use in holodeck flight simulations, you would think that Chakotay would have become familiar with them.

Also implicit to your position is the following:

P1--If Chakotay and/or Torres heard about the Odyssey or New Bajor before they were lost in the DQ, then they must know who was responsible for those attacks.

P2--The Dominion was responsible.

C2: Therefore, the two should call the Dominion by name.

This is at least two false dichotomies in one. Why would they necessarily know who blew up the GCS or the colony?

Because the Maquis have a vested interest in Bajor with so many of their members being Bajor ex-resistance fighters. Chakotay should have at least MENTIONED that these were the same guys who torched New Bajor.

Would they necessarily make the connection between 6 year-old attacks and news of the Maquis' murderers?

The bottom line is, Chakotay or Torres' lines aren't a condemnation of interseries continuity in and of themselves. Some have interpreted them that way, but that brings us to a whole other problem, that of approach. I'll talk about it later.

Your correct, it isn't a direct contradiction. I suppose I was a little hasty in my first statement in assuming so. However, I do believe that they are both brain dead for not making the connection ESPECIALLY since the message Chakotay recieved obviously mentioned them by name.

Entire world is a big stretch; I've not heard anything to suggest that the colony was large at all.

I'd also say it's somewhat of an exaggeration to say that, throughout season 3, the entire Federation was up in arms about the Dominion. DS9 was given Defiant, a tough gal but relatively unproven and, at the end of the day, still only one ship.

They also saw fit to heavily upgrade DS9's defenses (a distinctly un-Starfleet action) and withdraw almost all trafic to and from the Gamma Quadrent. You don't think the civilian population of the Federation and her neighbors were wondering about this?

I dunno that I'd call that level of preparation blazing, nor would I say that DS9's preparation is at all indicative of the entire Federation's (a hasty generalization).

As such, the "cover-up" wouldn't be as difficult as you indicate, but I never said a cover-up was necessary--just that it's not the sort of thing that'd be widely publicized for no good reason.

A Federation top-of-the-line cruiser was lost with all hands (aside from the non-essential personal that were left at DS9) during peacetime. Do you have any idea how the press would eat this up today? Remember how much press the USS Cole bombing got? And that was a small ship that wasn't even sunk. This kind of news would send shockwaves through the Federation.

But for the sake of this argument, let's say it was common knowledge that the Jem'Hadar blew up the Odyssey. Chakotay first heard the name from a Bolian fur trader *shrug*, and during a visit with other Maquis leaders, he overheard Eddington describe how polaron beams would go right through Federation shields, that the Jem'Hadar look like alligators, and some other such details.

That's all well and good, but how does it prove a contradiction again? Because he used the vague term "aliens" when he could have said "Dominion"?

If you listen to the way Chakotay says his line, it is pretty clear from the intonations in his voice that he has no idea who these people were. I know this is subjective, but try to watch the episode if you can and decide.

Correction: a colony was destroyed and again, frankly, so what?

So they might've heard about it. That doesn't prove anything, and remains a mere "likelihood" at that. For a contradiction we need something firm.

It's just another piece of evidence given their closeness with the Bajoran people, who were probably terrified by the loss of one of their colonies.

I don't recall that any proper Starfleet officer on Voyager mentioned their familiarity with the Dominion--the opportunity didn't present itself--but I say again, that holoprogram had to come from somewhere...

And actually no, I don't there's much reason the Dominion would be discussed onboard VGR seasons 1-6. They had their hands full from day one...why talk about an ill-understand political body that's half a galaxy away?

Point.

If he did have access to the entire database, why assume he must be familiar with all of it? That's a leap in logic, and a first for any Starfleet officer I've heard about. Even Data routinely had to perform lengthy searches on the E-D's computer, demonstrating its storage capacity was well beyond his own.

Strangely enough, since he was connected to the Prometheus database when he learned of it, he should have instantly known the answer But I'll digress...

Why even go that far? Jokes about Neelix's spunk aside (uggggh!, LOL), I wouldn't necessarily call them brain dead, stupid or ignorant based on those lines. I think you're trying to make something from almost nothing.

I guess my hate for Voyager is just shining through. So sorry.

They would've been smart to include a throw-away line about the Dominion I guess, but consideration of the writers is incompatible with my approach.

Unfortunately, smart isn't something I associate with the Voyager writers.

Strangely enough, since he was connected to the Prometheus database when he learned of it, he should have instantly known the answer But I'll digress...

Maybe information regarding the Dominion was in an encrypted section of the database ?

seanrobertson wrote:

The Kernel wrote: They were Jemmies and the epsiode name was in season 2 and was called "Parturition".

As for them knowing about the Dominion, nope that's not possible. When Chakotay (or whatever the fuck his name is) found out about the Dominion War, he told Torres something along the lines of "Some new race from the Gamma Quadrent has allied with the Cardassians...". Doesn't sound like they knew them to me.

This is frustrating. Did you not read my post? Was what I said just beneath contempt, so irrational you don't even think it's worth answering--in your opinion, of course?

I ask because I already noted the "aliens from the Gamma Quadrant gave the Cardassians weapons" line. And I've twice said why Torres or Chakotay wouldn't know dick about the Dominion, too, yet you're quoting that pair to [try and] tell me I'm wrong.

I'll say it a third time: Chakotay and Torres were in the Maquis when the Odyssey was destroyed (read: when the Federation first realized that the Dominion posed a very real threat). Since you're not even sure of Chakotay's aka "Mr. Whatever The Fuck's" name, I take it you're relatively unfamiliar with VGR.

However did you remember the visuals and name of a specific VGR episode, I wonder? (As should be obvious, that's a joke. I realize you're just poking fun at Cacahaute.)

Judging by things you've said elsewhere in the forum you are, however, familiar with DS9. Consequently, you know that the Maquis is considered a terrorist organization by Starfleet Command.

Well, I rather doubt Starfleet would've widely publicized the exact circumstances under which they lost a flagship--certainly not to Maquis terrorists or those outside the Federation.

Therefore, before Chakotay's ship was sucked into the Delta Quadrant, the Dominion would've remained a vague rumor to the Maquis, a fuzzy potential problem at worst.

On the other hand, how could Voyager's Starfleet crew NOT know about the Dominion?

As previously noted, the events of "The Jem'Hadar" took place many months before VGR was lost. Don't you think the circumstances surrounding the loss of a flagship would be something of which the fleet's COs should be made aware?

I do.

Janeway would've been briefed on that kind of threat. Her first mission took her to the Bajor Sector, home to the wormhole and effectively next door to these powerful Jem'Hadar. There's every reason to appraise Janeway of the goings-on in that area of space, especially since VGR might've spent quite some time in the area after Chakotay's ship was apprehended.

One other thing:

You'll note that none of VGR's SF personnel ever verbalized their ignorance of the Dominion. Did Janeway say, "Jem'Ha-WHO?" No. Did Tuvok or Kim claim they'd never heard of the Dominion? No.

So far as we can confirm, only the doctor didn't know what the Dominion was, but why should he? He's a hologram, originally regarded as an automaton, a short-term measure. They never intended for him to become "alive"...filling his programming with lots of vague data on Jem'Hadar would serve NO purpose.

All that's really beside the point. You, Primus and R say we saw Jem'Hadar ships in "Parturition"?

Ok then: someone on VGR obviously knew about the Jem'Hadar or, if nothing else, the computer had some information about the Dominion.

Why? Simple...how else did Jem'Hadar ships find their way into Voyager's holodeck programs?!?!

"Shitty writing" is no kind of answer; the show could be something less than nothing, but I don't apply a certain method of analysis only when I like the subject matter. Like it or lump it, my approach remains the same.

As it stands I don't see anything even close to a contradiction.

I was under the impression vojager left before the dominion had been incountered

The Voyager crew gave hologram technology to the Hirogen in order for them to hunt something without having to kill real people.

In a follow-up episode, the holographic victims rebel and make war on the Hirogen: one or more of the Holo-People were Jem'Hadar.

yeah but that was after they made contact again with star fleet.

they also had 7 of 9s alcove to draw information from and its very likely they borg had incountered the jem hadar before.

evilcat4000 wrote: So why has B & B chosen to overlook such an important matter ?

They're just stupid fucks thats why

evilcat4000 wrote:

Strangely enough, since he was connected to the Prometheus database when he learned of it, he should have instantly known the answer But I'll digress...

Maybe information regarding the Dominion was in an encrypted section of the database ?

I had been under the impression (not sure from where ) that the HoloDoc had to actively access the computer, that there was a partition between the HoloDoc and the ShipComp (probably to prevent him from "lagging" in the middle of an operation).