"Die is the Cast" planetary attack solution?

[Robert Walper]

I recently read another reference on the constant debate over the nature of what happened during this episode.

For those unfamilar, a fleet of Romulan and Cardassian warships opened fire upon a planet's surface(apparently it was the Founder's homeworld). Visuals showed a very strange effect from such bombardment, appearing to be nothing more then harmless shockwaves. Sensor sweeps after the attack "detected" that 30% of the planet's crust had been destroyed.

Based upon objective visual evidence and dialogue, the Dominion seemingly anticipated the attack and fooled the attacking fleet's sensors into thinking they had struck a massive blow at the planet.

This of course has sparked alot of debate, mostly about Trek firepower exaggerations, etc. Problems with these claims are lack of visually accountable damage to the surface of the planet, relative firepower as compared to other Trek examples, etc.

Perhaps a much simpler theory would be that the Dominion had a planetary shield in operation?

-Planetary shields have been witnessed in Trek before, most notably in TOS.
-This would explain the apparent weird visual effects witnessed.
-The Dominion was sending false signals to the entire fleet. They may also have possessed the ability to hide the shield from normal sensor sweeps.
-If this was the Founder's homeworld, then protecting it with such a large scale technology might not be an unrealistic possibility, also given the Dominion's apparent techhnological edge over the Federation. They did possess the technology to make an attempt to destroy a star.

Would this make for a reasonable solution to the debate?

[Alyeska]

Robert, I already came up with a simpler explination for TDiC that brings both the original time estimate and the stated destruction together.

In order to effectively destroy the planet the joint task force set up a grid like pattern for destroying the planet. They would selectively fire into different coordinates and move on to the next coordinate until they had methodicaly destroyed the planet. This means when they state 30% of the crust is destroyed, they mean 30% of the crust in the targeted coordinates is destroyed.

Occams razor says the simplest solution is the most likely. This one satisfies both stated facts in the episodes and relies on the least complex system.

[Kamakazie Sith]

The effects did seem like shield impacts but nothing we've ever seen on ST. More like the shield effects seen on ID4.

[Darth Wong]

Nice try, but it doesn't change the fact that they're looking at a screen which shows no glowing mantle or ionized ejecta, yet they state that a millions of square kilometres of crust have been destroyed. If there were a shield, why didn't they notice something amiss right away?

The best explanation is that they were not being literal; they used the word "crust" as a stand-in for "surface", and when they said they were going to destroy the mantle, they probably meant that after razing the surface, they would send drilling photorps in to create big seismic shocks that would kill buried deep shelters.

[Alyeska]

Nice try, but it doesn't change the fact that they're looking at a screen which shows no glowing mantle or ionized ejecta, yet they state that a millions of square kilometres of crust have been destroyed. If there were a shield, why didn't they notice something amiss right away?

The best explanation is that they were not being literal; they used the word "crust" as a stand-in for "surface", and when they said they were going to destroy the mantle, they probably meant that after razing the surface, they would send drilling photorps in to create big seismic shocks that would kill buried deep shelters.

Mike, the opening fleet volley was less then observed capabilities for the ships in question. Its possible the task force fired a test shot at a coordinate location (as per my explination). This explains why the shots didn't leave damage visible to space and it still keeps both stated dialogues consistent.

[Robert Walper]

I proposed this idea merely to try and explain those large scale shockwaves that apparently did little to nothing to the planet's surface.

Impacting a planetary shield is simply a possbility I haven't seen mentioned before. Therefore, I thought it might be worth checking out.

Been a long time since I saw the episode.

[Darth Wong]

Mike, the opening fleet volley was less then observed capabilities for the ships in question.

In terms of numbers of shots. Not necessarily in terms of power. It may be that their refire rate is lower when they charge up weapons for max-power shots. I don't see the point in being tentative with a first strike.

Its possible the task force fired a test shot at a coordinate location (as per my explination). This explains why the shots didn't leave damage visible to space and it still keeps both stated dialogues consistent.

Unless your "30% of the targeted grid square" idea is based on miniscule grid squares which make no sense in light of the necessary overall rate of bombardment, it still doesn't work. An hour to take out the whole crust means roughly 500 million square km per hour, or 8.3 million square km per minute, or 1.4 million square km every 10 seconds. Do the math.

[Robert Walper]

Nice try, but it doesn't change the fact that they're looking at a screen which shows no glowing mantle or ionized ejecta,

Exactly. Almost as if they didn't even damage the surface of the planet. Even a bombardment of modern nuclear warheads should've made a more impressive visual effect, Large scale, lingering white flashes for one.

yet they state that a millions of square kilometres of crust have been destroyed. If there were a shield, why didn't they notice something amiss right away?

I thought they did?

Didn't the Romulan commander say, "What? Already?" is response to the scale of "damage" sensors supposedly detected. Right afterwards, didn't they realize their sensors were being fooled?

The best explanation is that they were not being literal; they used the word "crust" as a stand-in for "surface", and when they said they were going to destroy the mantle, they probably meant that after razing the surface, they would send drilling photorps in to create big seismic shocks that would kill buried deep shelters.

As I recall, there was a large error between what their projections predicted for them and what their sensors, which were apparently fooled, detected.

I'm proposing the fleet didn't even damage the surface, but instead hit a planetary shield, accounting for the visual evidence we saw (large scale, but confusingly ineffective shockwaves).

[Alyeska]

Unless your "30% of the targeted grid square" idea is based on miniscule grid squares which make no sense in light of the necessary overall rate of bombardment, it still doesn't work. An hour to take out the whole crust means roughly 500 million square km per hour, or 8.3 million square km per minute, or 1.4 million square km every 10 seconds. Do the math.

While not a perfect example, this works. Its not uncommon for artillery type weapon systems to bracket an enemy with test fire shots and then open fire with a full volley. What I am saying is that the fleet was likely testing the waters before fully comitting. Who knows, maybe they were testing to see if it was a trap, see if there was a shield, or some such. Once the opening volley determined what was going on (and they did specificaly scan imediately afterwards rather then commence rapid bombardment), they decide further course of action. This is somewhat supported by the events because they did only fire one volley and they were specificaly scanning the planet to see what happened.

[Darth Wong]

While not a perfect example, this works. Its not uncommon for artillery type weapon systems to bracket an enemy with test fire shots and then open fire with a full volley.

They're doing this so they can refine their targeting solution. Since the fleet is not likely to have difficulty hitting a planet, this is totally unnecessary in the case of TDiC.

What I am saying is that the fleet was likely testing the waters before fully comitting. Who knows, maybe they were testing to see if it was a trap, see if there was a shield, or some such.

You can concoct any theory you like, but the ultimate point remains that this incident does not actually prove anything about firepower. For it to act as evidence in support of one theory, you would have to show that one theory handily beats the other, and that's a higher bar than simply showing that both theories can be made to work via creative interpretation of dialogue (necessary for both your theory and mine).

[Alyeska]

You can concoct any theory you like, but the ultimate point remains that this incident does not actually prove anything about firepower. For it to act as evidence in support of one theory, you would have to show that one theory handily beats the other, and that's a higher bar than simply showing that both theories can be made to work via creative interpretation of dialogue (necessary for both your theory and mine).

Strictly speaking, I am not bothering with the firepower issue. I was merely comming up with an explination that fits both stated facts. Hell, my explination tosses out the possibility of a damned high firepower rating.

I guess what this comes down to is there is to little information for a concrete statement and at best we have a series of likely or possible explinations.

[Lord Poe]

We SAW the exact points where those weapons hit, and saw NO ejecta, or even FLAMES. There was no one area pinpointed either; it was the whole upper hemisphere.

Also, remember that the false sensor readings being sent up to the fleet were STILL OPERATING after that bombardment.

[Kamakazie Sith]

We SAW the exact points where those weapons hit, and saw NO ejecta, or even FLAMES. There was no one area pinpointed either; it was the whole upper hemisphere.

Also, remember that the false sensor readings being sent up to the fleet were STILL OPERATING after that bombardment.

Which would indicate the presense of a shield since whatever was sending up the false sensor readings was still operational.

[Chris OFarrell]

We SAW the exact points where those weapons hit, and saw NO ejecta, or even FLAMES. There was no one area pinpointed either; it was the whole upper hemisphere.

Also, remember that the false sensor readings being sent up to the fleet were STILL OPERATING after that bombardment.

Which would indicate the presense of a shield since whatever was sending up the false sensor readings was still operational.

Thats not as crazy as it sounds. It would explain the weird VFX as some kind of shield operating to protect the planet. Or at least protect the EW equipment generation all the false sensor readings for the fleet, to keep them there for the critical time needed for the Jem'Hadar to spring the trap.

[Kamakazie Sith]

We SAW the exact points where those weapons hit, and saw NO ejecta, or even FLAMES. There was no one area pinpointed either; it was the whole upper hemisphere.

Also, remember that the false sensor readings being sent up to the fleet were STILL OPERATING after that bombardment.

Which would indicate the presense of a shield since whatever was sending up the false sensor readings was still operational.

Thats not as crazy as it sounds. It would explain the weird VFX as some kind of shield operating to protect the planet. Or at least protect the EW equipment generation all the false sensor readings for the fleet, to keep them there for the critical time needed for the Jem'Hadar to spring the trap.

Right, but like DW pointed out it does nothing for the firepower issue.

[Lord Poe]

We SAW the exact points where those weapons hit, and saw NO ejecta, or even FLAMES. There was no one area pinpointed either; it was the whole upper hemisphere.

Also, remember that the false sensor readings being sent up to the fleet were STILL OPERATING after that bombardment.

Which would indicate the presense of a shield since whatever was sending up the false sensor readings was still operational.

Thats not as crazy as it sounds. It would explain the weird VFX as some kind of shield operating to protect the planet. Or at least protect the EW equipment generation all the false sensor readings for the fleet, to keep them there for the critical time needed for the Jem'Hadar to spring the trap.

**nods** Ok...this is what my position has been since TDiC CAME OUT. So why are Trekkies just NOW agreeing with me??

[Chris OFarrell]

Which would indicate the presense of a shield since whatever was sending up the false sensor readings was still operational.

Thats not as crazy as it sounds. It would explain the weird VFX as some kind of shield operating to protect the planet. Or at least protect the EW equipment generation all the false sensor readings for the fleet, to keep them there for the critical time needed for the Jem'Hadar to spring the trap.

**nods** Ok...this is what my position has been since TDiC CAME OUT. So why are Trekkies just NOW agreeing with me??

What you agree with it?...

THEN YOUR WRONG!
Sorry its a Genetic thing. I must always take the opposite of whatever you claim :

[Durandal]

We SAW the exact points where those weapons hit, and saw NO ejecta, or even FLAMES. There was no one area pinpointed either; it was the whole upper hemisphere.

Also, remember that the false sensor readings being sent up to the fleet were STILL OPERATING after that bombardment.

Which would indicate the presense of a shield since whatever was sending up the false sensor readings was still operational.

If it was a shield, don't you think that the people staring at it through the viewscreen would've gone, "Hey, wait a second ..."? The transmitter could have simply been on the side of the planet that wasn't being attacked.

[Kamakazie Sith]

We SAW the exact points where those weapons hit, and saw NO ejecta, or even FLAMES. There was no one area pinpointed either; it was the whole upper hemisphere.

Also, remember that the false sensor readings being sent up to the fleet were STILL OPERATING after that bombardment.

Which would indicate the presense of a shield since whatever was sending up the false sensor readings was still operational.

If it was a shield, don't you think that the people staring at it through the viewscreen would've gone, "Hey, wait a second ..."? The transmitter could have simply been on the side of the planet that wasn't being attacked.

True, but it does explain the strange visual effects.

That episode is just weird, period.

[Jason von Evil]

Are there any sites with screencaps of the assault?

[Durandal]

True, but it does explain the strange visual effects.

That episode is just weird, period.

But it doesn't adequately explain them. It could if you want to assume that the whole bridge crew is fucking blind, but that is contradicted by other canon instances of them seeing things. You could also assume gross, inconceivable incompetence. This would not be a first in Star Trek, where "singularities" are giant, flowery purple things.

So, if it was a shield, all the bridge crews on all the ships failed to notice it, despite the fact that it was on their viewscreens. Not one lowly ensign spoke up and asked, "Uh, Captain, is there supposed to be a shield there?" Keep in mind that these are also the people who are reporting destruction numbers. Can we safely assume that they're literate?

[Chris OFarrell]

True, but it does explain the strange visual effects.

That episode is just weird, period.

But it doesn't adequately explain them. It could if you want to assume that the whole bridge crew is fucking blind, but that is contradicted by other canon instances of them seeing things. You could also assume gross, inconceivable incompetence. This would not be a first in Star Trek, where "singularities" are giant, flowery purple things.

So, if it was a shield, all the bridge crews on all the ships failed to notice it, despite the fact that it was on their viewscreens. Not one lowly ensign spoke up and asked, "Uh, Captain, is there supposed to be a shield there?" Keep in mind that these are also the people who are reporting destruction numbers. Can we safely assume that they're literate?

By that same logic we would be asking why none of them were standing up and saying:

"Hey Helm Bitch, does that look like 30% of planatery crust destroyed? I see no HELLIFRE!"

[Darth Wong]

By that same logic we would be asking why none of them were standing up and saying:

"Hey Helm Bitch, does that look like 30% of planatery crust destroyed? I see no HELLIFRE!"

Not a problem with non-literal interpretations of the quote.

[Kamakazie Sith]

True, but it does explain the strange visual effects.

That episode is just weird, period.

But it doesn't adequately explain them. It could if you want to assume that the whole bridge crew is fucking blind, but that is contradicted by other canon instances of them seeing things. You could also assume gross, inconceivable incompetence. This would not be a first in Star Trek, where "singularities" are giant, flowery purple things.

So, if it was a shield, all the bridge crews on all the ships failed to notice it, despite the fact that it was on their viewscreens. Not one lowly ensign spoke up and asked, "Uh, Captain, is there supposed to be a shield there?" Keep in mind that these are also the people who are reporting destruction numbers. Can we safely assume that they're literate?

Yes I suppose your right. It does not adequately explain them, but it was a good theory in my opinion....one of the better ones regarding this episode.

[Durandal]

By that same logic we would be asking why none of them were standing up and saying:

"Hey Helm Bitch, does that look like 30% of planatery crust destroyed? I see no HELLIFRE!"

Only if you interpret the quote literally, which observed evidence says you should not. And these people are bumblingly incompetent, anyway, as shown in my previous analysis.