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I just caught the TNG 2-part episode "Redemption", the one where we get a taste of the Klingon civil war between Gowron and Imperial loyalists against the Duras' and their allies. Of course, the thing was cooked up by the Duras sisters and the Romulans, in particular, Sela. The Duras' were winning thanks to the Romulans bankrolling the invasion, ensuring that the Duras' were always well supplied. Picard gets wind of what's going on and, since the Federation wasn't willing to actually enter the war (which is beyond me, since Picard and Worf hit the nail on the head as to why they should have), they were willing to fly to the Klingon-Romulan border with a small fleet of twenty-something ships and try and catch the Romulans redhanded. They were going to do this by means of arranging their ships in an array and pump piping hot tachyons between them like a net, which appearantly detects Romulan ships under cloak, and if a Romulan ship tries to run through the net, the Federation ships can stop them. After Sela turns up and Picard slaps gums with her about her origin, Picard decides to try and trick her into running the blockade, by having a ship pretend to have it's engines shit themselves (huh... do Federation ships normally crap out like this as to be a convincing ploy?), and redeploying his twenty-something ships to try and cover the hole, but inadvertantly leaving a convenient hole in the blockade, which is Sela tries to run, the Enterprise will swoop back and catch her. Sela isn't that stupid, and decides to make her own hole in the web by disabling one of the ships in the blockade where it's at its weakest, the Sutherland, captained by Data (which has interesting implications all its own, but that's a different thread). So, Sela's ship zaps the Sutherland, opening a hole "ten million kilometers centered around the Sutherland" in the blockade, at which point, the Romulans decide to run the blockade. Fortunately for the Federation and Gowron, Data defies his lawful orders from his superior and commits insubordination, doing a technobabbly thing that detects the Romulan ships, who cheese it upon detection.

Aside from circumstances of Data getting a command and why Data wasn't canned for disobeying a direct order from his superior in the face of the enemy, I want to talk about the size of the blockade itself. Now, we saw a picture of the Federation blockade fleet on Romulan scanners and Federation plans, which formed a web pattern that is supposed to keep the Romulan fleet from entering Klingon space. Because these are graphic representations on instruments, we can assume that the pictures are to scale and accurate of the Federations positions. Now, when Picard decided to pull his hole ploy, we saw the ships rearrange themselves, and as Sela pointed out, the three ships which the Sutherland was the center of, were relatively isolated to the rest of the formation and were the furthest apart, making it a weakpoint. Given the stated nature of the web, the ships were nodes in a network of tachyon beams, and when the Sutherland was disabled, it no long served as a node, meaning that it as no long connecting the network from the ships around it. Generously, we can interpret this hole to be 20 million klicks total meaning that there was 20 million kilometers between the two ships on either side of the Sutherland. Using this number, we can get a general idea at the size of the entire blockade. I'd guesstimate from memory, that the entire blockade on the screen was at most ten times the size of the space between the two ships, making it ~200 million kilometers across total.

Now, that sounds like a big long distance, but in terms of space, it's pathetically small. For reference, that's ~27 million kilometers short of Mars semi-major axis, which is ~227 million kilometers, which is a relatively short distance, and would be completely inadequate to blockade a single star system, let alone the border of an interstellar empire. What prevented the Romulan fleet from just flying around the blockade without passing through it, since doing so would be a simple task for a group with interstellar drives?

Notch it up to idoicy on the Romulans, I suppose

Gil Hamilton wrote:What prevented the Romulan fleet from just flying around the blockade without passing through it, since doing so would be a simple task for a group with interstellar drives?

Shh! You weren't meant to ask that!

There is a dangerous subspace rift in between the Romulan Empire and the Klingon Empire. The rift prevents all travel across the border except from that one area. That is why the Romulans had to run the blockade.

Their ships are simply not fast enough to fly around a blockade line, and apparently must choose optimal routes to yield the quickest travel times between star systems, thus allowing the creation of "choke points" by one side or the other within zones of space located along these routes. If starships have to drop out of warp for any portion of their flight, then it becomes much easier to intercept enemy ships.

As for Mr. Data's actions, it is possible to escape punishment for disobeying a direct order from a fleet commander if said action can be justified on the grounds of military necessity towards fulfilling the fleet's mission. It is on the officer responsible to explain his actions to the satisfaction of higher eschelons, who subsequently decide if the action was warranted or not and to ratify it after the fact or not. Military regs are never interpreted so rigidly that any slightest deviation from the letter of the book merits immediate punishment.

Are you joking, Patrick, or are you being serious about that (the first paragraph, not the second)?

Gil Hamilton wrote:Are you joking, Patrick, or are you being serious about that (the first paragraph, not the second)?

Considering how many times Federation or any other empire's fleets have had to fight their way through a "wall" of enemy ships rather than simply flying around them, I'd say my first statement was self-evident.

Patrick Degan wrote:Considering how many times Federation or any other empire's fleets have had to fight their way through a "wall" of enemy ships rather than simply flying around them, I'd say my first statement was self-evident.

But there were only twenty or so ships in the blockade arranged in an array that couldn't have been more than two hundred million kilometers across. Anyone with a faster-than-light drive can fly around than in literally minutes.

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Patrick Degan wrote:Considering how many times Federation or any other empire's fleets have had to fight their way through a "wall" of enemy ships rather than simply flying around them, I'd say my first statement was self-evident.

But there were only twenty or so ships in the blockade arranged in an array that couldn't have been more than two hundred million kilometers across. Anyone with a faster-than-light drive can fly around than in literally minutes.

And yet this simple feat was not feasible for the Romulans, and the logic of the blockade strategy is based upon this. FTL should render the entire concept of a blockade line (or a battle line) pointless. The plain fact was that it wasn't.

This leads to one of two possible conclusions: Trek ships are either forced to follow optimised "space lane" courses and cannot outrun a group of vessels on an intercept vector at warp, or they are forced for one reason or another at periodic intervals to drop out of warp and run at impulse for parts of their transit —the latter possibility making interception by blockade ships much easier.

Patrick Degan wrote:

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Patrick Degan wrote:Considering how many times Federation or any other empire's fleets have had to fight their way through a "wall" of enemy ships rather than simply flying around them, I'd say my first statement was self-evident.

But there were only twenty or so ships in the blockade arranged in an array that couldn't have been more than two hundred million kilometers across. Anyone with a faster-than-light drive can fly around than in literally minutes.

And yet this simple feat was not feasible for the Romulans, and the logic of the blockade strategy is based upon this. FTL should render the entire concept of a blockade line (or a battle line) pointless. The plain fact was that it wasn't.

This leads to one of two possible conclusions: Trek ships are either forced to follow optimised "space lane" courses and cannot outrun a group of vessels on an intercept vector at warp, or they are forced for one reason or another at periodic intervals to drop out of warp and run at impulse for parts of their transit —the latter possibility making interception by blockade ships much easier.

Both are unlikely here though. The Romulans would be cloaked, and so wouldn't be intercepted. The whole reason they had the bloackade was to detect them.

What seems to puzzle me and maybe Gil is if the blockade only span a certain distance or area, why not climb or descend at a certain point in space to get a trajectory that doesn't head into the blockade and thus bypassing them?~Jason

Sharp-kun wrote:

Patrick Degan wrote:

Gil Hamilton wrote: But there were only twenty or so ships in the blockade arranged in an array that couldn't have been more than two hundred million kilometers across. Anyone with a faster-than-light drive can fly around than in literally minutes.

And yet this simple feat was not feasible for the Romulans, and the logic of the blockade strategy is based upon this. FTL should render the entire concept of a blockade line (or a battle line) pointless. The plain fact was that it wasn't.

This leads to one of two possible conclusions: Trek ships are either forced to follow optimised "space lane" courses and cannot outrun a group of vessels on an intercept vector at warp, or they are forced for one reason or another at periodic intervals to drop out of warp and run at impulse for parts of their transit —the latter possibility making interception by blockade ships much easier.

Both are unlikely here though. The Romulans would be cloaked, and so wouldn't be intercepted. The whole reason they had the bloackade was to detect them.

Since the Federation fleet had technology enabling them to nullify the Romulans' cloaking advantage, and since the Romulans could not avoid interception by the blockade force, your statement is not only illogical, it is unworthy of refutation. Watch the episode.

Patrick Degan wrote:

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Patrick Degan wrote:Considering how many times Federation or any other empire's fleets have had to fight their way through a "wall" of enemy ships rather than simply flying around them, I'd say my first statement was self-evident.

But there were only twenty or so ships in the blockade arranged in an array that couldn't have been more than two hundred million kilometers across. Anyone with a faster-than-light drive can fly around than in literally minutes.

And yet this simple feat was not feasible for the Romulans, and the logic of the blockade strategy is based upon this. FTL should render the entire concept of a blockade line (or a battle line) pointless. The plain fact was that it wasn't.

This leads to one of two possible conclusions: Trek ships are either forced to follow optimised "space lane" courses and cannot outrun a group of vessels on an intercept vector at warp, or they are forced for one reason or another at periodic intervals to drop out of warp and run at impulse for parts of their transit —the latter possibility making interception by blockade ships much easier.

Perhaps it was the only route that wasn't patrolled.

Patrick Degan wrote: Since the Federation fleet had technology enabling them to nullify the Romulans' cloaking advantage, and since the Romulans could not avoid interception by the blockade force, your statement is not only illogical, it is unworthy of refutation. Watch the episode.

They couldn't nulify the tech. They set up a grid, that would let them know when a cloaked ship was there, when it was broken. The only way Data saw them, was because disrupting the grid left a signature.

If they avoid the grid completely, they will be undetected.

Sharp-kun wrote:They couldn't nulify the tech. They set up a grid, that would let them know when a cloaked ship was there, when it was broken. The only way Data saw them, was because disrupting the grid left a signature.

If a cloaked ship flying through the tachyon field leaves a visible trail, the cloaking device is nullified, whether the ship remains covered by it or not. If the ship can be picked up on sensors, it is no longer invisible. Sela and her aide discuss this new problem at length, and determining that they cannot fly around the blockade fleet, they decide to try to blind part of the net so they can fly through it.

Data extrapolated where the Romulan ships would be headed when Sela had the tachyon burst transmitted. He employed other sensing methods to pick out the enemy ships in the "noise" and used photorps to expose the Romulans.

If they avoid the grid completely, they will be undetected.

The Romulans could not fly around the blockade. That was why they gambled on the tachyon burst to blind a segment of the detection grid to enable them to fly through it. Understand?

Kamakazie Sith wrote:Perhaps it was the only route that wasn't patrolled.

Since when are their "routes" in interstellar space?

Patrick Degan wrote:The Romulans could not fly around the blockade. That was why they gambled on the tachyon burst to blind a segment of the detection grid to enable them to fly through it. Understand?

But it does not answer the question, which is "why not?" So far, you've yet to provide a reason why they've needed to fly through that tiny postage stamp of space.

Patrick Degan wrote: The Romulans could not fly around the blockade. That was why they gambled on the tachyon burst to blind a segment of the detection grid to enable them to fly through it. Understand?

Why? Its a tiny part of space to go round.

If you want to refute his staement instead of trying to have him prove a negative.

Prove this point he brought up

Patrick Degan wrote:Their ships are simply not fast enough to fly around a blockade line, and apparently must choose optimal routes to yield the quickest travel times between star systems, thus allowing the creation of "choke points" by one side or the other within zones of space located along these routes. If starships have to drop out of warp for any portion of their flight, then it becomes much easier to intercept enemy ships.

He literally says the ONLY way they can create a choke point is because the ships are unable to go fast enough and must use points where in they have their best travel times.

Asking why not...must answer why the fuck are their choke points in the first place to exploit.

He extrapolates they must not be able to move fast enough...any other theories?

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Patrick Degan wrote:The Romulans could not fly around the blockade. That was why they gambled on the tachyon burst to blind a segment of the detection grid to enable them to fly through it. Understand?

But it does not answer the question, which is "why not?" So far, you've yet to provide a reason why they've needed to fly through that tiny postage stamp of space.

How about because it was stated they couldn't? Is that enough for you?

But there are no choke points. It's interstellar space, which is literally as far from a choke point as you can get, because there is nothing out there.

Ghost Rider wrote: He extrapolates they must not be able to move fast enough...any other theories?

Which is odd. We're not talking about a major detour.

SirNitram wrote:How about because it was stated they couldn't? Is that enough for you?

Where exactly did they say that they couldn't? They were established to be in the middle of space, it's not like there is a big fucking wall out there that forces starships to fly in very specific areas.

Gil Hamilton wrote:

SirNitram wrote:How about because it was stated they couldn't? Is that enough for you?

Where exactly did they say that they couldn't? They were established to be in the middle of space, it's not like there is a big fucking wall out there that forces starships to fly in very specific areas.

Have you watched the episode? If you had, you'd notice they see the blockade, and formulate a plan to go through. At no point is the option of going around even discussed. Geordi comments it's not as big as he'd like, but big enough. The end result is, those who actually operate the ships saw no other reasonable option.

This is something called 'suspension of disbelief'. For reasons we, the viewer, do not know, they were forced to fly through. Whining 'It's interstellar space! They should be fine! It can't be so!' is exceptionally annoying. At least the suggestions put forth for why can rationalize the situation.

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Patrick Degan wrote:The Romulans could not fly around the blockade. That was why they gambled on the tachyon burst to blind a segment of the detection grid to enable them to fly through it. Understand?

But it does not answer the question, which is "why not?" So far, you've yet to provide a reason why they've needed to fly through that tiny postage stamp of space.

I don't have to provide a reason why the Romulans couldn't avoid the blockade. The episode clearly demonstrates that, for one reason or another, they could not do so. This is observed fact, no matter how much anybody may wish to engage in rhetorical speculation to the contrary.

I can theorise on why the situation unfolded as it did: it may be that starships must drop out of warp at periodic intervals and run part way on impulse drive either due to some mechanical limitation of the warp drive, or for navigational sighting purposes. There may have been tactical reasons for the Romulans to run at impulse through that particular sector; perhaps as part of an evasion routine against distant Klingon/Federation monitoring (even with stealth, you take precautions against any monitoring).

The sector where the interception took place was proximate to the Romulan supply base nearest to Klingon sectors controlled by the Duras Rebellion. We've seen that warfare in the Trek universe devolves on numerous "island-hopping" manoeuvers —attacks launched from "jumping-off points" and the necessity to control key sectors within range of important strategic objectives. This is why it is possible for one side or the other to set up "choke-points" to cut these manoeuvers off.