Miranda class vs. Constitution(refit) class

paladin · Post by **paladin** » 2003-09-28 10:55pm

Which class was better suited for combat? Also explain your reason.

Drach · Post by **Drach** » 2003-09-28 11:04pm

The Miranda class starships were designed and built as a follow-up class to the Constitution Class starships, and introduced in the early 23rd century around the same time as the Constitutions to supplement their capabilities . Many components of the Mirandas are pulled from the Constitution class: the saucer and the warp nacelles, most obviously. These ships, being smaller and slightly less-capable than the Constitution class, were procured as a less expensive production line to project Federation presence and power into more areas than could be accomplished with the existing Constitution fleet. The result of this design philosophy was a relatively formidable warship which could be produced more quickly and less expensively than the Constitution class. Today the Miranda's are not front-line combat units in themselves, but they are still to be seen operating in major fleet actions in support of the modern vessels. Recently several Miranda class vessels have begun to show signs of serious stress fractures in their hulls; investigations are underway with all ships in the class, and although the results are yet to be announced it is thought that the problem is likely due to the age of the hulls. If so, the Miranda class is likely to be forced into retirement sometime over the next few years.

So by design the Miranda was only designed to compliment the larger, more expensive, and more than likely more powerful Constitution class. Khan only did so much damage to the Enterprise because he caught Kirk off guard with shields down.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-09-28 11:27pm

Mirandas have rear torpedo tubes.

The oversize phaser emitters are interesting, but whether they're more powerful, or merely less efficient, than the Constitution's would only be speculation.

The Miranda offers a smaller target for similar internal volume, too.

I'd give a slight edge to the Miranda.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-09-28 11:30pm

I always viewed the Miranda as something akin to a light cruiser while the Connie is a heavy cruiser. Perhaps a better analogy would be a battleship vs. a pocket battleship. She's lighter and nimbler but lacks the firepower and durability of the Connie.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-09-29 01:27am

I've always thought of the Mirandas as being a battlecruiser, I think they scream for a comparison to the D7 or K'Tinga.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-09-29 03:04am

If thats the case Hipper imagine what the Klingon version of the Constitution Class would be like

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-09-29 08:53am

Frank Hipper wrote:I've always thought of the Mirandas as being a battlecruiser, I think they scream for a comparison to the D7 or K'Tinga.

Are not Mirandas stronger than D7 or K'Tinga ?

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-09-29 09:41am

Typhonis 1 wrote:If thats the case Hipper imagine what the Klingon version of the Constitution Class would be like

Here's FASA's Klingon heavy cruiser.
And another.
This is only listed as a cruiser, but it would fit the bill.
And remember, a battlecruiser was a ship that carried battleship armament and had the speed of a cruiser, with a de-emphasis on protection. As far as we know canonicly, the Mirandas were developed as counter D7s.

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-09-29 10:48am

evilcat4000 wrote:
Frank Hipper wrote:I've always thought of the Mirandas as being a battlecruiser, I think they scream for a comparison to the D7 or K'Tinga.
Are not Mirandas stronger than D7 or K'Tinga ?

actually I think that the D-7 was the Klingons answer to the Federation Consitution class and the K'Tinga was the answer to the Constitution Refit, but that is purely speculation on my part as those are the ships we see in the same time frames. The K'Tinga and Constitution Refit are both introduced in ST:TMP and we saw the D-7 and the orginal Connies in TOS together. I would also like to point out that in ST:TUC that Gorkons ship which was only refered to as a "battlecruiser" made the bridge crew somewhat nervous, meaning it was not something they could dismiss easily. The Enterprise was probably outclassed somewhat since General Chang expected to blow Kirk from the stars after taking two hits with their shields down.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-09-29 11:33am

Well, glancing at the model's (linky);

Miranda: 3 dorasal phaser banks (fore, port, starboard). 3 ventral phaser banks (fore, port, starboard). 4 heavy cannons (or two if each has a barrel facing both fore and aft) on the port and starboard wings.
Two forward and two aft torpedo launchers.

Small crosssection, compact design. Still has a few weak points like the rollbar that connects the torpedo pod to the main hull.

Consitution: 3 dorsal phaser banks (fore, port, starboard). 4 ventral phaser banks (fore, port, starboard and one bank on the ventral engineering hull). 2 aft phasers (aft by the landing bay).
Two forward torpedo launchers.

Large cross section, small thin connector from primary hull to secondary hull. Huge wing like naccells that connect warp engines to the secondary hull.

While the Connie has in effect, two extra phaser banks to cover the ventral and aft fire arcs, the Miranda has the heavy looking cannons. If the so called phaser cannons prove to have more fire power than the normal phaser, then the Miranda has the edge. The Miranda also has the edge with torpedo's, having double the tubes as the Consitution and the bonus of one set of those tubes in the aft firing arc.

The Miranda is smaller more compact, though she doesn't have as good phaser coverage in the aft arc as the Connie, she does have torpedo coverage there to make up for it.

Personally, if the Consitution is a battlecruiser, then the Miranda should be one too. She seems just as fast and nimble as the Connie and has equal if not superior firepower.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-09-29 12:39pm

I don't think the Miranda has the space to house an equally powerful powerplant, nor provisions for a long journey. The Constitution would seem better equipped for deep space assignments.

We also don't know what the respective shield strengths are of the two ships, nor do we know the refire rate on the Miranda's torpedo tubes. We do know that the Constitution can burst fire at least two torpedos from each tube. It would seem likely that the Constitution could hold far more torpedos than the Miranda.

Frankly, with those big shuttle bays and the impulse and warp engines, I can't see how you could fit nearly as much equipment into a Miranda as you could a Constitution unless the Miranda is totally geared for war... and that seems highly unlikely given that what the Genesis Project needed was a science vessel to look for a lifeless planet.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-09-29 06:25pm

In all likelyhood the Miranda is a light cruiser with equal firepower but less range then a Constitution.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2003-09-29 08:32pm

Death from the Sea wrote:
evilcat4000 wrote:
Frank Hipper wrote:I've always thought of the Mirandas as being a battlecruiser, I think they scream for a comparison to the D7 or K'Tinga.
I would also like to point out that in ST:TUC that Gorkons ship which was only refered to as a "battlecruiser" made the bridge crew somewhat nervous, meaning it was not something they could dismiss easily.

They were nervous because a heavily armed ship of war of one of their (until this day) most leathal enemies was sitting less then a klick from them and they were not allowed to raise their shields...

The Enterprise was probably outclassed somewhat since General Chang expected to blow Kirk from the stars after taking two hits with their shields down.

Err no Chang was insanely (or playing the part of an insanly) pissed off guy who was going to TRY to blow Kirk out of the stars. It doesn't mean he would be ABLE to. For all we know if Kirk had raised shields and opened fire, HE would have easily blown Chang out of the sky. Your can't realy prove anything from one way or the other.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2003-09-29 08:34pm

The Miranda seems to be a shorter-duration version of the Constitution; after all the CON engineering hull is 25% shuttlebay, and its designed for deep-space exploration. If you assume the Miranda has about half the crew, and maybe one year independent action, then I don't see why it can't have a similar powerplant. It's weapons and armour appear the same, and Miranda is much smaller for a similar impulse drive, so it should be a little faster at sublight.

Ignorant_Boy · Post by **Ignorant_Boy** » 2003-09-29 09:16pm

Didn't they say in ST2: TWOK, just before deciding to enter the nebula that the Reliant could outrun and outgun the Enterprise? Granted, this was after the Enterprise had been damaged though.

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-09-29 11:18pm

Ignorant_Boy wrote:Didn't they say in ST2: TWOK, just before deciding to enter the nebula that the Reliant could outrun and outgun the Enterprise? Granted, this was after the Enterprise had been damaged though.

It was because of the extensive damage done by Kahns initial attack with the Enterprise's shields down, it took out all systems and when Kirk returned the attack his was not as effective, because the Reliant was able to limp away for repairs while the Enterprise stayed in position to make repairs.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2003-09-30 02:31am

Death from the Sea wrote:
Ignorant_Boy wrote:Didn't they say in ST2: TWOK, just before deciding to enter the nebula that the Reliant could outrun and outgun the Enterprise? Granted, this was after the Enterprise had been damaged though.
It was because of the extensive damage done by Kahns initial attack with the Enterprise's shields down, it took out all systems and when Kirk returned the attack his was not as effective, because the Reliant was able to limp away for repairs while the Enterprise stayed in position to make repairs.

Yes the ship was heavily damaged. It seems that before hit the Enterprise only slightly outgunned the Reliant. After Kahn tore the ship to shreads Kirk was very much at a dissadvantage. It appears that one major Problem was the Enterprise's shields were not working at full strength and Kirk and Co were trying to come up with a way to even the odds and still gIve them a chance to get Genesis back from Kahn. The Sensors on the Enterprse were also not working as advertised so eliminating as many od Kahn's advantages as possible with on fell swoop by forcing the battle into the Nebula was brillient!

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-09-30 08:20am

Mirandas still seem to be used in the TNG era Federation. That would indicate that the Mirandas were a better design than the Constitution since they outlasted them.

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-09-30 10:23am

evilcat4000 wrote:Mirandas still seem to be used in the TNG era Federation. That would indicate that the Mirandas were a better design than the Constitution since they outlasted them.

not necessarily, it could indicate that the role regulated to the Miranda class was diminished over the years as more capable vessels became available(Excelsior class ships are shown to be mainly shuttles for diplomats and such in TNG not at all the same role in TOS era) plus Miranda's were never really shown to be deep space explorers as much as a patrol ship. (I'll bet the Miranda's were also just cheaper to maintain) Compared to the Consitution's which were for deep space missions they needed to be the top of the line after all you don't want to risk losing weaker ships when you can send stronger ones that are more capable.

The Miranda's also made great cannon fodder in the Dominion War.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-09-30 06:53pm

evilcat4000 wrote:Mirandas still seem to be used in the TNG era Federation. That would indicate that the Mirandas were a better design than the Constitution since they outlasted them.

I always assumed that rather then have the jack of all trades Consitution, Starfleet moved to smaller number of more capable Excelsiors sublimented by the smaller Mirandas.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-09-30 09:29pm

A F-4 ----> F-15 + F-16 scenairo, to use a well-known analogy.

Andras · Post by **Andras** » 2003-10-01 05:10pm

Ent's saucer mounted phaser banks are paired right?
Are the Miranda's single emitters?

I know the Reliant's saucer banks didn't see use during the movie, are there any instances of them in use during TNG/DS9?

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-10-01 05:53pm

Andras wrote:Ent's saucer mounted phaser banks are paired right?
Are the Miranda's single emitters?

I know the Reliant's saucer banks didn't see use during the movie, are there any instances of them in use during TNG/DS9?

Yes
No
Yes

Kerneth · Post by **Kerneth** » 2003-10-01 06:04pm

Slightly off-topic, but I've always wondered why Starfleet would retire the Ambassador class earlier than the Miranda and Excelsior classes when by all available information the Ambassador is bigger, faster, and better armed.

Logically--yes, I realize one shouldn't necessarily apply logic to Starfleeet--shouldn't it be easier and more effective to refit an Ambassador to modern standards than the old Excelsior design?

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2003-10-01 06:55pm

Death from the Sea wrote:
evilcat4000 wrote:
Frank Hipper wrote:I've always thought of the Mirandas as being a battlecruiser, I think they scream for a comparison to the D7 or K'Tinga.
Are not Mirandas stronger than D7 or K'Tinga ?
actually I think that the D-7 was the Klingons answer to the Federation Consitution class and the K'Tinga was the answer to the Constitution Refit, but that is purely speculation on my part as those are the ships we see in the same time frames. The K'Tinga and Constitution Refit are both introduced in ST:TMP and we saw the D-7 and the orginal Connies in TOS together. I would also like to point out that in ST:TUC that Gorkons ship which was only refered to as a "battlecruiser" made the bridge crew somewhat nervous, meaning it was not something they could dismiss easily. The Enterprise was probably outclassed somewhat since General Chang expected to blow Kirk from the stars after taking two hits with their shields down.

Actually, the D-7 design (or something that looked a hell of a lot like it) was in use during the 22nd century, long before the Constitution class.